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+--- Thread: 2018 Rd 13: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs Fremantle at Etihad (/thread-3841.html)
Re: 2018 Rd 13: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs Fremantle at Etihad - Lods - 06-09-2018
Sounds like a pretty useless ruckmen who can't direct the ball to his team's advantage.
Re: 2018 Rd 13: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs Fremantle at Etihad - LP - 06-09-2018
Good rucks do not need to win the tap to influence where the ball goes.
A weakness of many players like Sandilands is that they never learned how to influence contests when they are not getting the first hand on the ball!
Re: 2018 Rd 13: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs Fremantle at Etihad - kruddler - 06-10-2018
(06-09-2018, 12:22 PM)Lods link Wrote:Sounds like a pretty useless ruckmen who can't direct the ball to his team's advantage.
and thats why hitouts to advantage is the only stat that matters.
Hitouts itself is irrelevent.
Re: 2018 Rd 13: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs Fremantle at Etihad - Lods - 06-10-2018
(06-10-2018, 12:26 AM)kruddler link Wrote:and thats why hitouts to advantage is the only stat that matters.
Hitouts itself is irrelevent.
I was adding weight to an earlier point you had made
;DIt's true though
It's meaningless who gets their hand on the ball first as a statistic.
We think back to some of the work of great ruckmen of the past and they could virtually put it straight into the hands of their rovers and mids....or to a position where they could run onto it.
But the congestion and tagging of the modern game makes it much harder to direct the ball and then for some advantage to be made of that possession...
If they're going to keep the stat it should at least be dependent on a teammate gaining possession for it to count.
While it may go nowhere after that, it at least demonstrates the skill of the ruckman.
Re: 2018 Rd 13: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs Fremantle at Etihad - ElwoodBlues1 - 06-10-2018
(06-10-2018, 12:26 AM)kruddler link Wrote:and thats why hitouts to advantage is the only stat that matters.
Hitouts itself is irrelevent.
I'll disagree a little, if you can prevent a dominant ruckman from getting the hitouts and influencing the game like a Sandilands, Grundy or Nic Nat then
a lesser skilled tap ruckman still has a purpose..
Re: 2018 Rd 13: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs Fremantle at Etihad - Lods - 06-10-2018
(06-10-2018, 12:56 AM)ElwoodBlues1 link Wrote:I'll disagree a little, if you can prevent a dominant ruckman from getting the hitouts and influencing the game like a Sandilands, Grundy or Nic Nat then
a lesser skilled tap ruckman still has a purpose..
Yep
No doubt there is a place for a 'stopper' ruckman
But that 'íntervention' will show up as a reduced output in the dominant ruckman's hit-out statistics
Re: 2018 Rd 13: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs Fremantle at Etihad - LP - 06-10-2018
(06-10-2018, 01:03 AM)Lods link Wrote:Yep
No doubt there is a place for a 'stopper' ruckman
But that 'íntervention' will show up as a reduced output in the dominant ruckman's hit-out statistics
As you probably know Lods good ruckmen look at the contest in far more detail than the tap.
For those not detailed in the craft an example. Drive your knee into the opponents left or right side/hip and you turn their body in the air forcing a bias in the direction of their taps even if they are winning them.
Another example, jumping early or late can influence an opponent to tap forward or behind them.
Sam Newman was a first class exponent of moving the averages in favour of his team, which is why he was such a good ruck coach. He took a far more holistic approach than jump higher and get your hands on the ball first.
It's a blight on the game that the modern ruck coaches are not able to implement strategies to deal with these small players taking ruck contests.
Another big issue is the current umpiring and rule implementation. When rucks come up against players like Cotchin they are basically being penalised by umpires for being stronger, taller and heavier. If they dispose of the Cotchin type player from the contest they are penalised, but the Cotchin type player can get up under the armpit of the ruckmen and move him off the line without penalty! It's a ludicrous situation that stoppage coaches are taking advantage of!
I've said this once before, the AFL ruck coaches need to get their head around the rules. I'd be coaching the rucks to nominate then move back 10m to take an aggressive run at the drop zone. The small players and opponents cannot shepherd that run without being penalised, and the large player is free to jump into them aggressively if the small opponent stands under the drop zone. I'm surprised some of the more aggressive rucks haven't worked this out for themselves already! Turn the boundary line throw ins and around the ground ball ups into old style ruck contests without a circle!
Re: 2018 Rd 13: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs Fremantle at Etihad - kruddler - 06-10-2018
(06-10-2018, 12:56 AM)ElwoodBlues1 link Wrote:I'll disagree a little, if you can prevent a dominant ruckman from getting the hitouts and influencing the game like a Sandilands, Grundy or Nic Nat then
a lesser skilled tap ruckman still has a purpose..
Preventing that dominant ruckman from getting hitouts and influencing games is directly reflected in the 'hitouts to advantage' stats. Which is why i said thats the only thing worth mentioning. Hitouts itself shows how many times a player got his hand on the ball, not how effective that was.
Re: 2018 Rd 13: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs Fremantle at Etihad - laj - 06-10-2018
(06-09-2018, 11:20 AM)kruddler link Wrote:To show you how useless the hitout stat is have a look at this.
Team A: 76 hitouts.
Team B: 29 hitouts
Team A: 36 clearances
Team B: 54 clearances
Team A: 4.2.26
Team B: 20.14.134
Team A: Gold Coast
Team B: GWS.
Agree there.
When GWS played Brisbane, Brisbane won the hitouts 47-4 but were beaten in the clearances. GWS just used 2 of their tall forwards as rucks, one being Patton.
Re: 2018 Rd 13: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs Fremantle at Etihad - LP - 06-10-2018
(06-10-2018, 06:58 AM)laj link Wrote:Agree there.
When GWS played Brisbane, Brisbane won the hitouts 47-4 but were beaten in the clearances. GWS just used 2 of their tall forwards as rucks, one being Patton.
Well, Patton's hardly Shaun Grigg! :o
It's not too big of a stretch to imagine Patton slotting comfortably into our 2nd ruck role! ;D