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+--- Thread: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons (/thread-3831.html)
Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons - DJC - 06-07-2018
(06-07-2018, 12:54 AM)Thryleon link Wrote:I welcome it.
Only when things become "unfair" will sanity be restored.
The trans movement is an identity disorder, and should be treated as such and not entertained in the fashion we currently do, and only when people accept that people cannot actually transition gender will we make any real progress on this front.
The other part of it, is that its simply kept out of sports. People can go trans after their sporting career is over, but they can't have it both ways so to speak.
Gender is not binary Thry. It’s a continuum with a bunch of folk in the middle who could be biologically male or female regardless of their genitalia.
Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons - LP - 06-08-2018
(06-07-2018, 11:54 PM)DJC link Wrote:Gender is not binary Thry. It’s a continuum with a bunch of folk in the middle who could be biologically male or female regardless of their genitalia.
For not diseased individuals chromosomes are binary as you can get, base 2 with each X or Y!
Are you saying we should write rules that take into account the 0.1% like XYY or XX Male?
I'm not sure the weasel words of opportunistic lawyers or gender rights campaigners make much difference to biology, but at the moment they control and profit from the debate!
No matter what you choose to be labeled, your chromosomes are ultimately the tell!
DJC, if you or your descendants dig up Mouncey's bones in a few thousand years as part of a forensic investigation, you find male features and male chromosomes and identify the remains as most likely male. That is a reality that no legal paragraph or political slogan can change!
Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons - Navy Maven - 06-08-2018
(06-08-2018, 12:06 AM)LP link Wrote:For not diseased individuals chromosomes are binary as you can get, base 2 with each X or Y!
Are you saying we should write rules that take into account the 0.1% like XYY or XX Male?
I'm not sure the weasel words of opportunistic lawyers or gender rights campaigners make much difference to biology, but at the moment they control and profit from the debate!
No matter what you choose to be labeled, your chromosomes are ultimately the tell!
DJC, if you or your descendants dig up Mouncey's bones in a few thousand years as part of a forensic investigation, you find male features and male chromosomes and identify the remains as most likely male. That is a reality that no legal paragraph or political slogan can change!
Gender is a social construct, sex is binary.
Personally, I agree with Chris Judd, I don't think Hannah should be allowed to play in the AFLW. Whilst her testosterone levels may be adequate according to world sporting bodies, I don't think they have quite figured out yet what those levels should realistically be. I think it hurts the image and integrity of the competition which is still in its infancy. It already annoys me that so much attention is made of this issue when we're trying to get as much positive publicity for the women who have been working forwards this for decades. Hannah needs to check her former white male privilege at the door and realise that a lot of these women have not had the opportunity to compete at the highest level of their chosen sport (as Hannah did pre-trans in Handball), so it's time to put the greater good of the sport ahead of her own wants and desires. Welcome to the sisterhood Hannah, sometimes being a woman kind of sucks balls.
Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons - Thryleon - 06-08-2018
(06-07-2018, 11:54 PM)DJC link Wrote:Gender is not binary Thry. It’s a continuum with a bunch of folk in the middle who could be biologically male or female regardless of their genitalia.
I don't know about this theory but I've entertained it and personally have rejected it.
My issue isn't the theory it's the practice.
In practice the non binary suffer as much angst and statistics show that suicide rates are just as high as the unhappy binaries.
Moral of the story is that we need to teach people how to accept the unchangeable. Genetics and biology has its shortfalls but this has moved beyond what people call a gender construct and has resulted in a trans construct.
Where I think it falls over is the definition of male and female. Hannah is a male in every way we all are just prefers to think of themselves as a female.
That's a brain issue not a biological one. Teach her to be happy in herself as a male and you increase the chance she will find happiness. Or you can let her be a parody of what she believes is a female even though it's just a bloke wearing a skirt, and you end up annoying everyone.
Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons - DJC - 06-08-2018
(06-08-2018, 12:06 AM)LP link Wrote:For not diseased individuals chromosomes are binary as you can get, base 2 with each X or Y!
Are you saying we should write rules that take into account the 0.1% like XYY or XX Male?
I'm not sure the weasel words of opportunistic lawyers or gender rights campaigners make much difference to biology, but at the moment they control and profit from the debate!
No matter what you choose to be labeled, your chromosomes are ultimately the tell!
DJC, if you or your descendants dig up Mouncey's bones in a few thousand years as part of a forensic investigation, you find male features and male chromosomes and identify the remains as most likely male. That is a reality that no legal paragraph or political slogan can change!
That’s not entirely true LP. I have excavated several burials where it was not possible to confidently identify the sex of the individual. Gracile male skeletons are often misidentified as female and robust female skeletons are misidentified as male. However, I would imagine that Mouncey’s skeletal attributes would indicate male.
As for DNA:
Quote:Biological phenomena don't necessarily fit into human-ordained binary categories. So while humans insist that you're either male or female – that you have either XY or XX sex chromosomes – biology begs to differ.
For example, genetic men with Klinefelter syndrome possess an extra X chromosome (XXY) or more rarely, two or three extra Xs (XXXY, XXXXY); they typically produce low levels of testosterone, leading to less-developed masculine sexual characteristics and more-developed feminine characteristics than other men. In contrast, some men receive an extra Y chromosome (XYY) in the genetic lottery, and while they have been referred to as "supermales" that is more sensationalism than science.
Genetic women with Turner syndrome have only one X chromosome; they often display less-developed female sexual characteristics than other women. And people with a genetic mosaic possess XX chromosomes in some cells and XY in others. So how do we determine if they're male or female? Hint: Don't say that it depends on the chromosomal makeup of the majority of their cells, since women with more than 90 per cent XY genetic material have given birth.
Even if you get the "right" combination of sex chromosomes, it's no guarantee that you'll fit into the carefully circumscribed human definitions of male and female.
For example, genetic women (XX) with congenital adrenal hyperplasia produced unusually high levels of virilizing hormones in utero and develop stereotypically masculine sexual characteristics, including masculinized genitals.
It’s not quite as clear cut as some folk may think ...
Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons - LP - 06-08-2018
(06-08-2018, 03:03 AM)DJC link Wrote:It’s not quite as clear cut as some folk may think ...
Firstly, I'd appreciate the source of the quotes.
Interested parties can take the exceptions in any case and try to argue they are the norm, but that is just another example of misleading and deceptive behaviour. Talking about the 1 in 1000 or 1 in 5000 is not discussing the average punter is it?
I'm not sure Turner Syndrome even as a 1 in 5000 example is relevant as they do have X chromosomes but they certainly do not have a Y!
I'm not anti-Mouncey, she can play in the AFL all she likes, she is physically big and strong enough to compete with the men!
I never get a valid answer to a couple of very simple questions;
- Is it fair for Mouncey to be displacing genetically born females from a spot on a AFLW list?
- What sort of advice should someone who has a lightly framed little daughter offer their daughter about her dreams to become an AFLW player?
- Is this Mouncey situation fair on the aspiring genetically female athletes, what are they to be measured against?
- Is there no risk that in the long term Mouncey types will dominate the AFLW?
As a defense to some of the above questions some will come out and claim the female athletes don't mind. But it's clear in the current political environment they are not in a position to be able to publicly oppose it without actual risking their own career and welfare!
Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons - DJC - 06-08-2018
The quote is from an article titled “Think gender comes down to X and Y chromosomes? Think again” written by Peter McNight and published in the Globe and Mail, 4 Jun 2015 (updated 15 May 2018).
There are many other scientific articles addressing the myriad conditions that blur our concepts of gender.
I’ll have a go at answering your questions.
1. I would have to know the basis for Mouncey’s gender re-assignment. She may well be genetically female. However, I share your concerns about the advantages her maturing as a male gives her over the majority of VFLW players. I’m not sure that she is good enough to play AFLW but that’s based on second hand observations.
2. Go for it!
3. Remember the transgender tennis player? She was going to ruin women’s tennis but hardly fired a shot. Apart from size and residual strength acquired as a maturing male, I don’t think that the Mouncey situation is unfair to aspiring female athletes. Other factors, such as leadership, team membership, ability, determination and mental health should level the playing field.
4. No. I don’t believe that blokes will undergo gender reassignment to cash in on women’s footy or any other sports.
Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons - LP - 06-08-2018
(06-08-2018, 04:39 AM)DJC link Wrote:The quote is from an article titled “Think gender comes down to X and Y chromosomes? Think again” written by Peter McNight and published in the Globe and Mail, 4 Jun 2015 (updated 15 May 2018).
Isn't McNight famous for writing an article titled, "There is no such thing as a natural born woman!"
But again, McNight makes use of circumstances when things go genetically wrong to justify his stance, it makes him come across almost as a gender denier. But again his whole stance is built on minority circumstances.
(06-08-2018, 04:39 AM)DJC link Wrote:There are many other scientific articles addressing the myriad conditions that blur our concepts of gender.
Again, when things go wrong for any number of associated reasons will not a suitable standards to use in this case.
(06-08-2018, 04:39 AM)DJC link Wrote:I’ll have a go at answering your questions.
1. I would have to know the basis for Mouncey’s gender re-assignment. She may well be genetically female. However, I share your concerns about the advantages her maturing as a male gives her over the majority of VFLW players. I’m not sure that she is good enough to play AFLW but that’s based on second hand observations.
Mouncey is a former male Olympic / Commonwealth games athlete, an athlete who competed in conditions that required gender clarification. Was it wrong then?
Again don't use the something was maybe wrong argument, it's not relevant.
(06-08-2018, 04:39 AM)DJC link Wrote:2. Go for it!
3. Remember the transgender tennis player? She was going to ruin women’s tennis but hardly fired a shot. Apart from size and residual strength acquired as a maturing male, I don’t think that the Mouncey situation is unfair to aspiring female athletes. Other factors, such as leadership, team membership, ability, determination and mental health should level the playing field.
Not a contact sport and not relevant, it's like arguing against trans-gender ten pin bowling participants.
What hope that little girl if she collides with a Mouncey type during a contact sport?
(06-08-2018, 04:39 AM)DJC link Wrote:4. No. I don’t believe that blokes will undergo gender reassignment to cash in on women’s footy or any other sports.
Maybe not, but if they were former male athletes and they have re-assigned why not join in? I won't at all be surprised to find some failed NBA athlete who has re-assigned decide that a good living can be made in the AFLW, after all isn't that exactly what Mouncey is, a failed male Olympic /Commonwealth games athlete now re-assigned for whatever reason and joining in the AFLW?
I don't give a stuff about Mouncey's welfare, whether she plays or doesn't, but I do feel sorry for her in the circumstance. My major worry is about the genetically female 54kg athlete who is going to compete against a transitioned athlete with 20 or 30 years of testosterone driven bone and muscle development to build an AFLW career on. What happens after the fact is almost but not totally irrelevant, at least we seem to agree on that!
Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons - Lods - 06-08-2018
I haven't really followed her career but is she....
a) dominating at the level she is currently playing at.
b) causing physical damage to other players due to her size and strength.
Re: VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons - LP - 06-08-2018
(06-08-2018, 07:45 AM)Lods link Wrote:I haven't really followed her career but is she....
a) dominating at the level she is currently playing at.
b) causing physical damage to other players due to her size and strength.
Coaches are using her very strategically, in that respect the circumstance seems to be not a pure test! I suspect this is not necessarily from the concerns I express, but more to do with Mouncey's personal situation or state of mind.
But will things remain like that as AFLW wages grow?
At the moment AFLW is not a living wage, it's barely costs+, but eventually maybe long after Mouncey's time it will be a significant living and I suspect at that time things won't be treated so delicately!
It's obvious the Mouncey decision isn't just about Mouncey, at the moment AFLW is dominated by LGBTIQAP, and so the Mouncey situation has some significant traction. But should that also be the case in determining the rules of a womens competition?
Money does change things, there's fair and reasonable then there is this,
[img width=200]https://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/xxx-7800-3_4_rx512_c380x510.jpg[/img]
This woman took up college basketball as a 50 year old transitioned player, how is that fair to some girl fighting for a spot in a college basketball team?
Eventually, there will be AFLW equivalents of that, and we should be very concerned about how the public reacts when it sees Mouncey on an AFLW broadcast next to your typical AFLW player. A 52 year old former male able to compete with college age female athletes, even ignoring the size difference that is just not right!