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Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - capcom - 05-15-2020
(05-15-2020, 01:04 AM)PaulP link Wrote:The pleasantness or otherwise of US folks at the micro / individual level is not really the point.
Like hell it isn't. I'm married to one and know hundreds more. Baggers was correct. At the core, they are an extremely welcoming bunch and hopelessly polite ... almost too much so.
They can effect change. They should.
But they are equally fearfully ignorant of the world outside their borders. Forget the personalities holding government (that's rubbish), it is the system is broken. Very badly.
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - PaulP - 05-15-2020
(05-15-2020, 03:37 AM)capcom link Wrote:Like hell it isn't. I'm married to one and know hundreds more. Baggers was correct. At the core, they are an extremely welcoming bunch and hopelessly polite ... almost too much so.
They can effect change. They should.
But they are equally [b]fearfully ignorant of the world outside their borders. Forget the personalities holding government (that's rubbish), it is the system is broken. Very badly.[/b]
I know the system is broken, which has been my point for a few pages. Trump is vulgar and frankly beneath contempt, but whatever problems he creates pale in comparison to the bigger picture.
The people you and others know may be the loveliest people on earth, but that's not the point. The holistic view, the numbers, facts etc. point to an empire in deep decline, and a society with deep divisions, and major problems.
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - LP - 05-15-2020
(05-15-2020, 03:51 AM)PaulP date Wrote:The people you and others know may be the loveliest people on earth, but that's not the point. The holistic view, the numbers, facts etc. point to an empire in deep decline, and a society with deep divisions, and major problems.I like most of the people I've met from the USA, but as a country they have some massive nationalistic failings. I've spent a bit of time there across several states, California, Arizona, Sth/Nth Carolina, Georgia, Wisconsin, Illinois and Michigan.
Much like Australians they are fiercely nationalistic when criticised, even more so because they will defend their politicians under foreign criticism. In general they are far more religious than Australians, while remaining far more introspective.
However, there is a shared trait that is common in many without being ubiquitous, and that is painting the world with the USA's troubles. All the faults they have everybody else has projected on them, you'll be lectured continuously about how you have to lift your game, and if you do not learn to be indifferent to this criticism you'll find travelling and living there very frustrating. Once you realise/accept that when they lecture you they are really talking about themselves, it all becomes tolerable. I was taught this by an UK Ex.Patriot of Indian heritage who is now living in Sth Carolina.
I agree with the politeness descriptions, if you get specific advice it'll generally be presented in a way that suggests you are making a mistake, but that is nearly always experience based. Mostly, if they do not know the answer they will stay quiet even if they see you heading towards trouble, it is your freedom and right to fall, and generally not their place to save you from failing, but this can make them appear dispassionate.
PS; On encountering "internationals", many who frequently travel can appear opinionated and boorish, it's really only passing on personal experiences most of the time. Excessive travelling is like life on steroids.
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - ElwoodBlues1 - 05-15-2020
https://au.news.yahoo.com/shocking-scenes-45-minutes-after-bars-open-in-virus-hit-wisconsin-051212086.html
Locals in Wisconsin clearly not understanding social distancing, Trump and those folk probably deserve each other.
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - Baggers - 05-15-2020
(05-15-2020, 05:42 AM)ElwoodBlues1 link Wrote:https://au.news.yahoo.com/shocking-scenes-45-minutes-after-bars-open-in-virus-hit-wisconsin-051212086.html
Locals in Wisconsin clearly not understanding social distancing, Trump and those folk probably deserve each other.
Aka, the lunatic fringe.
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - cookie2 - 05-16-2020
(05-14-2020, 08:41 AM)Baggers link Wrote:I think I've seen all his political, social commentary stuff, Fluffy One. Maybe one day we can enjoy a 'beverage' together and watch George at his best.
Sounds good Baggers. It's been a few years since I've watched any of his stuff. Pity he's not still around, plenty of new material for him to work with!
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - Baggers - 05-16-2020
(05-15-2020, 03:51 AM)PaulP link Wrote:I know the system is broken, which has been my point for a few pages. Trump is vulgar and frankly beneath contempt, but whatever problems he creates pale in comparison to the bigger picture.
The people you and others know may be the loveliest people on earth, but that's not the point. The holistic view, the numbers, facts etc. point to an empire in deep decline, and a society with deep divisions, and major problems.
The US, Pauly, has had deep divisions since the Civil War and hence major problems have become a way of life for most. And their decline has been steady for a couple of decades now.
I disagree totally with you however when suggesting that whatever problems the Orangutan creates pale next to the bigger picture. I don't see them as mutually exclusive. And I don't underestimate the importance of courageous leadership, visionary leadership... leadership that encourages and creates inclusiveness. Trumps leadership (**cough, splutter, gag **) is totally Machiavellian and exploits, manipulates and feeds the dysfunction and fears of the bigger picture you mention, of a fractured system, a system in crisis with the worst possible buffoon in charge.
Never underestimate the power of great leadership and its ability to affect meaningful change. There is evidence of this in other countries but the US is going to have to come up with someone, and quickly, to pull together a crumbling empire. Where there's life, there's hope. Personally, I'm not optimistic but not dismissive of the possibility. There are some very powerful corporate leaders in the US who may come to the fore at the 11th hour. I wouldn't rule out a revolution in China, either. The business leaders there would not be impressed with the problems created by the CCP.
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - PaulP - 05-16-2020
(05-16-2020, 09:27 AM)Baggers link Wrote:The US, Pauly, has had deep divisions since the Civil War and hence major problems have become a way of life for most. And their decline has been steady for a couple of decades now.
I disagree totally with you however when suggesting that whatever problems the Orangutan creates pale next to the bigger picture. I don't see them as mutually exclusive. And I don't underestimate the importance of courageous leadership, visionary leadership... leadership that encourages and creates inclusiveness. Trumps leadership (**cough, splutter, gag **) is totally Machiavellian and exploits, manipulates and feeds the dysfunction and fears of the bigger picture you mention, of a fractured system, a system in crisis with the worst possible buffoon in charge.
Never underestimate the power of great leadership and its ability to affect meaningful change. There is evidence of this in other countries but the US is going to have to come up with someone, and quickly, to pull together a crumbling empire. .......................................
Your belief in the one man / great leader theory is one that I simply do not share. This difference of opinion is what caused our big blue on the senior coach issue, and I see little value in returning to the scene of the crime. Trump, Biden, Obama etc. have as much power as they're allowed to have, and whilst I'm not suggesting that Trump has no power or that he's harmless, I stand by my original statement - his power is not nearly as great as the corporate right wing oligarchs who really run the show.
Trump is not Machiavellian - he has no ideology except narcissism. He's not dumb, but he's a undisciplined, blatant, loose cannon, and has amazingly convinced the US population that he's an outsider just like them. The office of President means nothing to him IMO, which is why he treats it like trash.
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - Tragic - 05-16-2020
(05-16-2020, 12:12 PM)PaulP link Wrote:Your belief in the one man / great leader theory is one that I simply do not share. This difference of opinion is what caused our big blue on the senior coach issue, and I see little value in returning to the scene of the crime. Trump, Biden, Obama etc. have as much power as they're allowed to have, and whilst I'm not suggesting that Trump has no power or that he's harmless, I stand by my original statement - his power is not nearly as great as the corporate right wing oligarchs who really run the show.
Trump is not Machiavellian - he has no ideology except narcissism. He's not dumb, but he's a undisciplined, blatant, loose cannon, and has amazingly convinced the US population that he's an outsider just like them. The office of President means nothing to him IMO, which is why he treats it like trash.
I tend to agree on this one with you Pauly, although we've had the odd disagreement before on the footy. From my understanding (have been taking a real interest in US politics and social issues for a few years now, but never been there), the system itself is screwed. It would take a person of monumental talent and charisma to even make a small positive impression on the US political system. Money is far too deeply embedded in every aspect of it. Campaign money at all levels of government comes from big business, wealthy families, and special interest pressure groups, and they don't give for no reason. They give because they expect their interests to be looked after. A very rich person can use his/her own money to run for president and personally avoid those interests, but the president is only one person, the rest of the corrupt system is running the same way it always has. It's running on dirty money, and those in power keep the machine chewing up the masses for the financial benefit of the already rich.
The people are desperate for a thing they call a 'living wage' - which is to have full time employment and be able to afford the basics to survive. Many full time workers are classified as living in poverty, all thanks to big business getting tax cuts, and the worker having shizen minimum wage. And then there's their health care system, where again big insurance companies, wealthy hospitals and docs, and big pharma don't give a crap about anyone who can't afford to pay. And guns. Guns, guns, guns. The NRA doesn't care how many kids die at school.
They are victims of a system that's been twisted to benefit those in power for generation after generation, and those who have the money and power will do anything to keep it that way because they don't want to get kicked out of the control room of the machine. Then they'd be fodder themselves.
Maybe this pandemic will bring these inequities to a head, and maybe some good will end up coming from it. But don't count on it. The worse things get the more those in control will protect their own interests. It will take a proper uprising to make any real change over there I fear. And that will require a leader who can rally all those crazies with their guns. I hate to say it, but it will take an orangutan to do it, and he'll only pretend to have his supporters interests at heart...
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - Baggers - 05-16-2020
(05-16-2020, 12:12 PM)PaulP link Wrote:Your belief in the one man / great leader theory is one that I simply do not share. This difference of opinion is what caused our big blue on the senior coach issue, and I see little value in returning to the scene of the crime. Trump, Biden, Obama etc. have as much power as they're allowed to have, and whilst I'm not suggesting that Trump has no power or that he's harmless, I stand by my original statement - his power is not nearly as great as the corporate right wing oligarchs who really run the show.
Trump is not Machiavellian - he has no ideology except narcissism. He's not dumb, but he's a undisciplined, blatant, loose cannon, and has amazingly convinced the US population that he's an outsider just like them. The office of President means nothing to him IMO, which is why he treats it like trash.
I'm pretty sure you'll find that most narcissists are also Machiavellian... by default.
Yep, we'll agree to disagree on this one re leadership. I've seen courageous and visionary leaders alter cultures and systems in organisations and nations. Takes time, but the right people can and do achieve remarkable things. Bad cultures and bad systems were often created by bad and corrupt leadership.
Perhaps I'm too optimistic but I do refuse to throw my arms in the air with defeat when things look bleak and a system is badly broken. Yes, the US is in a mire, so bad that even the alternative to the Republicans look pretty impotent. And there are huge numbers of them adhering stoically to appalling values and beliefs. But to give up is to hand them the keys. If you're going to go down, at least go down fighting (for what is believed to be right).
If we look closer to home, it was great leadership from a certain individual who brought significant change to the Tiggers a few years back (Balme), and those changes brought in were sweeping and cascaded throughout the place... totally altering systems and culture. Leading Teams altered culture/system at the Pussycats - and that was one man with a whiteboard. There are plenty of examples of superior leadership from one person altering, for the better, an entire system or culture.