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+--- Thread: Russian Ukraine War (/thread-5823.html)
Re: Russian Ukraine War - DJC - 08-24-2023
(08-24-2023, 01:44 PM)Thryleon link Wrote:I think you misunderstood me.
We know these two are at war.
We know that Russia is the baddie, Ukraine the goody.
At least this is what we are told.
It's over simplified. This latest episode is simply more of the same. What is there to believe here? Putin is bad and staged a mission against Ukraine. Ok, that happened but why is what I dont buy.
Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, strange explosions in Lebanon, the Crimean battles. New resources found in the Mediterranean causing more political chest thumping. Trump Biden rumour about usa politics being influenced by the Russians.
Conspiracy or just a strange string of loose connections with putin the culprit?
That's the thing Thry ... it's not what you're told, it's what can be gleaned from history and from a range of aligned and non-aligned sources. Take most of the media commentary with a grain of salt but don't dismiss the first hand accounts.
Re: Russian Ukraine War - kruddler - 08-24-2023
(08-24-2023, 02:00 PM)DJC link Wrote:That's the thing Thry ... it's not what you're told, it's what can be gleaned from history and from a range of aligned and non-aligned sources. Take most of the media commentary with a grain of salt but don't dismiss the first hand accounts.
I dont want to start an old debate.
But read what you wrote.
Then think about about the first 24 hours of 9/11.
Every first hand account aligned, media even reported it that way. Within 24 hours every media outlet flipped it on its head and sang from the opposite hymn book.
Russia, people believe the conspiracy first.
USA, if you believe conspiracy, you're a crack pot.
Same same but different.
Re: Russian Ukraine War - Thryleon - 08-24-2023
(08-24-2023, 02:00 PM)DJC link Wrote:That's the thing Thry ... it's not what you're told, it's what can be gleaned from history and from a range of aligned and non-aligned sources. Take most of the media commentary with a grain of salt but don't dismiss the first hand accounts.
History has shown that the first casualty of war is the innocent.
The second the truth.
The third, the victor is never the bad guy.
The fourth, our side was never the bad guy regardless of which side you are on.
Interesting perspectives. Apply it to Russia. Tell me, what is this conflict all about?
Re: Russian Ukraine War - Gointocarlton - 08-24-2023
(08-24-2023, 08:52 PM)Thryleon link Wrote:History has shown that the first casualty of war is the innocent.To me the conflict is about a narcissistic, ruthless, murdering, nut job who invaded a country for no other reasons than because he can and that no-one on the planet will a do a damn thing about it.
The second the truth.
The third, the victor is never the bad guy.
The fourth, our side was never the bad guy regardless of which side you are on.
Interesting perspectives. Apply it to Russia. Tell me, what is this conflict all about?
Re: Russian Ukraine War - Lods - 08-24-2023
Vlad has sent his condolences to Prigozhins family.
So that probably rules out Western propoganda
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/putin-sends-condolences-to-wagner-chief-prigozhin-s-family-after-crash/ar-AA1fJnGb
If this is a con and a trick, its a Russian con.
"I've always liked Yevgeny. His family needs to understand it was only business" said Don Vlado Putani.
Re: Russian Ukraine War - mateinone - 08-27-2023
i seriously always have to wonder how much knowledge people have of Russia and it's history. if anyone is asking why Russian media and politicians are less trustworthy than western media and politicians, the debate might as well end there, but anyway.... Political assassinations are and always have been a part of the Russian way of doing things, before the death penalty was abolished you only needed to lock someone up, interrogate them and force them to either confess and save their family (which often during the USSR was a lie as the family was usually purged later) or hold out and know you family would suffer the same fate.
Now with no death penalty it is still state sanctioned killings but in a different manner.
Russia has always used lying as an official means of bending the public will, there was a small period from Glasnost where there was more openness, not the same level of openness as you have in the west, where opposition media can openly criticize you and bust open your lies, but a degree... even then it was fraught with danger, especially once Putin come into power. Take a look at this list and tell me of another place on the planet where so many journalists were killed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia
Russia sees it's strength lies in controlling the narrative and not allowing an alternative version. It is why Russians are hesitant (even in personal calls online) to be critical of anything the government says or does. Nobody would suggest the western media is the beacon of truth, nor their governments, but it is incredibly more transparent than Russia.
The sad part is some of this propaganda even works on those who should know better. I had an argument with a Russian (who still lives in Russia) after they told me that there are hardly any Ukrainians left fighting for Ukraine and 90% of the fighters know are foreigners. Now this lie has been pushed over and over again on Russia One, especially by the likes of Vladimir Solovyov, but i never thought a sensible person could believe this... It just shows that pushing a lie over and over and over again works and it is the Russian lesson they learned directly from Goebbels.
A even earlier example about how little the truth matters can be seen below
Quote:We are not waging war against individual persons. We are exterminating the bourgeoisie as a class. During the investigation, do not look for evidence that the accused acted in deed or word against Soviet power. The first questions that you ought to put are: To what class does he belong? What is his origin? What is his education or profession? And it is these questions that ought to determine the fate of the accused. In this lies the significance and essence of the Red Terror
Russia doesn't care about truth, it cares about obedience.
As for whether Russia is the "baddie" in the war in Ukraine.. Honestly you don't need to look at all at the media for this. It is obvious to anyone with a clear conscious and any knowledge of history as to what is right and what is wrong, as well as for the reasons that Russia invaded..
If you are sucked in by the claim about NATO expansion being the reason, then why isn't there an attack on Finland going on right now?
if you are sucked in by Russia believing in an areas right to self determination, the same claim it used to invade Georgia over South Ossetia and Abkhazia, then where are the right of the Mari El people? The rights of the Dagestani and Chechnyan people to self determination? It doesn't exist because it isn't real. Russia does not care one iota about it's people.
If you wanted to get an idea about real reasons you have to consider the history of Russian leaders and how Putin styles himself as a Tsar, including his own references to Russia's arguably greatest Tsar Peter I. The other thing is understanding that Ukraine is as big of a kleptocracy as Russia is and any threats to break up this kleptocracy was always going to be met by a lot of anger inside the circle of Russia's biggest oligarchs. If Ukraine was to become part of the EU, it has to make sweeping reforms, this is likely to see very powerful Russian (and Ukrainian) men lose a lot of power and wealth which Ukraine generates. This outcome was totally unacceptable to a lot of people.
If all of this is legitimate, then why was it the Russian Army and Wagner that ran the armed insurrections in the east (without wearing Russian uniforms) and why did they do the same in Crimea, originally arriving overnight in their "little green men" uniforms?
People in their desire to want to prove the west is full of lies, try and back up the likes of Russia as being "no worse" and it is just patently untrue. I happen to love the country of Russia, like a lot of Eastern Europe, it has a very fascinating history, it also has a beautiful (though very difficult) language and some of the richest literature in the world, but that doesn't change that the government is incredibly corrupt and that this corruption is absolutely clear at all levels of government and within the judicial system also, and that the western sphere doesn't come remotely close to matching that
Re: Russian Ukraine War - mateinone - 09-14-2023
Just a quick video on the role propaganda plays within the Russian society i will share a video and also a channel.
The first video is from a town near Smolensk and it is inside a Kindergarten. It is specifically the 90 second song i am showing, which really appears to me as though it is from a dystopian world. The song starts at the 35 second mark of the video
https://youtu.be/48DaLYiO-yk?si=gwi9BIWz_WrFYVEC&t=35
I wanted to get a gauge if this is considered "normal" inside Russia, so i asked 3 friends (2 still in Russia and one who left last year) whether this "normal".
The responses from all 3 indicated everything is normal. i should point out though that this is a celebration day (like ANZAC day) which is basically "Defender of the Fatherland Day". I pointed out it is still quite dystopian indoctrination to me, but they disagreed and thought it was just pride in their country.
The next is just one of the media watch sites i look at for some of the recent propaganda.
Russian Media Watch
There are many other options, but you want to ensure you are getting good translations as well. This just gives an idea of what is pushed consistently to the home audience on the most famous and popular channels inside Russia.
All of this is just again to give an insight into the values of Russian people and the environment they are surrounded by. This isn't me disparaging Russian people, in fact many are very kind and warm people, but it is quite fair to say "Russian traditional values" are very different to ours and this is very important in understanding the reasons Russians react to certain news and events.
Re: Russian Ukraine War - Thryleon - 09-14-2023
Is putin still sick and dying?
Re: Russian Ukraine War - mateinone - 09-14-2023
(09-14-2023, 11:23 AM)Thryleon link Wrote:Is putin still sick and dying?
This is funny, i spoke about that with a friend a long time ago and we discussed how it served Russia's interest for the west to think he was so ill that they could outlast him.. In Russia there is absolutely NOTHING on their televisions ever suggesting he has any health issues and i think personally it was a lot of wishful thinking by the west and disinformation.
I believe the Russian's very much wanted the outside world to believe he was sick and the West bought it hook, line and sinker.. we will see of course, but that has been my thoughts on it
Re: Russian Ukraine War - Thryleon - 09-14-2023
(09-14-2023, 11:29 AM)mateinone link Wrote:This is funny, i spoke about that with a friend a long time ago and we discussed how it served Russia's interest for the west to think he was so ill that they could outlast him.. In Russia there is absolutely NOTHING on their televisions ever suggesting he has any health issues and i think personally it was a lot of wishful thinking by the west and disinformation.
I believe the Russian's very much wanted the outside world to believe he was sick and the West bought it hook, line and sinker.. we will see of course, but that has been my thoughts on it
Thats one way to view it.
Personally it was just the same propaganda in reverse, but I think it's more about morale at the front lines than anything else.
The funny thing about these things is that they could be true.
If you read the news on the Microsoft pages every day, the Ukraine troops are inflicting heavy losses on the Russians almost daily, and the the Russian troops are bumbling fools who are poorly coordinated and don't want to be there.