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+--- Thread: Post Game Analysis: AFL 2021 Rd 12: Carlton vs West Coast (/thread-5252.html)
Re: Post Game Analysis: AFL 2021 Rd 12: Carlton vs West Coast - PaulP - 06-07-2021
delete
Re: Post Game Analysis: AFL 2021 Rd 12: Carlton vs West Coast - Lods - 06-07-2021
I've made it a separate thread...If Sam Maclure is correct (yet to be confirmed) it may generate a bit of discussion.
Re: Post Game Analysis: AFL 2021 Rd 12: Carlton vs West Coast - kruddler - 06-07-2021
(06-07-2021, 08:05 AM)ElwoodBlues1 link Wrote:Yep...thats the we are done for 2021 call and lets order the timber for the gallows and find ourselves a scape goat.I literally said only a few hours ago that this was my biggest fear.
We start jumping at shadows and change tact for the rest of the year signalling defeat.
We can still finish 9th without too much trouble, technically 8th or higher mathematically, so why are we doing this now?
Re: Post Game Analysis: AFL 2021 Rd 12: Carlton vs West Coast - Macca37 - 06-07-2021
(06-07-2021, 07:02 AM)kruddler link Wrote:Agree.
People are being so black and white they should go follow the pies.
People are basically complaining that we are not finals bound
People fail to realise that while that is true, we are no longer on the bottom of the ladder.
Improvement has been obvious. Yes, its slower than we all want, but the 'logic' of nuking the place to start again hasn't worked the last 6 times, but its SURE to work this time....its laughable.
If for no other reason than to try something different for the first time in 20 years, lets stick with the coach and give him what he needs....players, assistants....whatever.
Read post 148 by WASurfer and tell me where he is wrong.
Where you accuse people of seeing black and white I believe the bulk of what they are seeing is grey and an acceptance that our rebuild has been a failure.
You take comfort from the fact that we are not on the bottom of the ladder. But where we are now and where we are heading is surely cold comfort for where we are in this rebuild.
You take comfort from the fact that under Teague our losses are not as bad as they used to be. Big deal. We are still losing.
With my view on our loss on Sunday you would no doubt place me with the black and white brigade.
I do not know the Eagles players well. From the way they played it was not possible to single out their five newcomers. They all played as a cohesive unit to a set plan and carried it out well enough to embarrass us.
Watching our response to them soon showed a side seemingly unwilling or unable to follow a game plan - if indeed we have one - and crushing the hopes of supporters.
Yes, after 6 six years it is reasonable to expect we should be knocking on the doors of the 8. It is being done by sides who were below us while we are now bumbling along trying to work out what has gone wrong.
Is it the coach and/or coaching staff? Is it the Board? Is it poor recruitment? Is it poor development of players? Etc, etc.
While all the questions are being asked with no easy answers, we will remain a shambles.
Re: Post Game Analysis: AFL 2021 Rd 12: Carlton vs West Coast - kruddler - 06-07-2021
(06-07-2021, 08:28 AM)Macca37 link Wrote:Read post 148 by WASurfer and tell me where he is wrong.I replied to his post directly after that. His very first sentence is over the top nonsense. I'm not bothering with the rest.
Where you accuse people of seeing black and white I believe the bulk of what they are seeing is grey and an acceptance that our rebuild has been a failure.
You take comfort from the fact that we are not on the bottom of the ladder. But where we are now and where we are heading is surely cold comfort for where we are in this rebuild.
You take comfort from the fact that under Teague our losses are not as bad as they used to be. Big deal. We are still losing.
With my view on our loss on Sunday you would no doubt place me with the black and white brigade.
I do not know the Eagles players well. From the way they played it was not possible to single out their five newcomers. They all played as a cohesive unit to a set plan and carried it out well enough to embarrass us.
Watching our response to them soon showed a side seemingly unwilling or unable to follow a game plan - if indeed we have one - and crushing the hopes of supporters.
Yes, after 6 six years it is reasonable to expect we should be knocking on the doors of the 8. It is being done by sides who were below us while we are now bumbling along trying to work out what has gone wrong.
Is it the coach and/or coaching staff? Is it the Board? Is it poor recruitment? Is it poor development of players? Etc, etc.
While all the questions are being asked with no easy answers, we will remain a shambles.
I have done countless analysis of our football club and where we are now vs where we were with a prediction of where we might get too. Read around.
Comparisons to Melbourne a few years ago.
Comparisons to Saints and Bombers earlier this year....and as recently as yesterday!
Read here for some recent comparisons....
https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?topic=5377.0
I've said repeatedly the road to success is a rollercoaster with plenty of ups and downs. Don't think that every up means thats our new base and every down is our current level. We are not as bad as people say.
The reason i keep pointing out that we don't get flogged and that we are winning more than we used to is not because i am happy with where we are, its because we are better than where we were. Believe it or not, we continue to rise as a team.
Some people see it as simple wins and losses......but thats very naive. The link above shows why, specifically with Bombers.
I brought up % as a measure of success. People scoff at it, but thats because they don't actually take time to think about what that means.
Our % is currently 92.4%, that is unheard of for a team that is 4-8 for starters. But looking at our last 2 decades, our best football was played under Ratten and our first season under Malthouse where we made finals from 9th.
Excluding that 6 year period, our next best % (from the other 14 years) was last year where we ended up with 94.34% That is about the same as Rattens first year (2008) where we went 10-12 with 94.18%. No other years are above 90% There are 3 above 80%...one of which was Teagues first (half) season.
So what....
Our team is playing the best it has in the last 20 years (Ratten era aside) albeit without the wins coming through.
I would much prefer where we are now, than Pagans best year where we went 10-12 (2004) and had a % of just 81.66%.
That showed we were crap, but lucky.
Now we are better, but unlucky.
It is only a matter of times until it translates to wins.
Re: Post Game Analysis: AFL 2021 Rd 12: Carlton vs West Coast - Macca37 - 06-07-2021
As you are not happy with WASurfer's opening sentence, I invite you to commence reading his post from the paragraph beginning "Look back about 5 or 6 years ago..."
I am sure the views he expresses there would sit quite easily with the majority of contributors to this thread.
I assume you draw comfort from the statistics of the match and believe that success, although elusive at the moment, will come in due time.
On the other hand, I rely on what I see to form my views. During and at the end of the game I saw a group of Carlton players who had played without leadership, with little or no spirit when the game was in danger, seemingly without a game plan, and looking utterly dejected.
We have many problems with no easy fixes, and I don't see a challenge to teams in the 8 any time soon.
Re: Post Game Analysis: AFL 2021 Rd 12: Carlton vs West Coast - kruddler - 06-07-2021
(06-07-2021, 10:30 AM)Macca37 link Wrote:As you are not happy with WASurfer's opening sentence, I invite you to commence reading his post from the paragraph beginning "Look back about 5 or 6 years ago..."OK, i'll play one more time.
I am sure the views he expresses there would sit quite easily with the majority of contributors to this thread.
I assume you draw comfort from the statistics of the match and believe that success, although elusive at the moment, will come in due time.
On the other hand, I rely on what I see to form my views. During and at the end of the game I saw a group of Carlton players who had played without leadership, with little or no spirit when the game was in danger, seemingly without a game plan, and looking utterly dejected.
We have many problems with no easy fixes, and I don't see a challenge to teams in the 8 any time soon.
A lot of what you describe, and what he describes is what i've talked about....a roller coaster ride.
Same goes for the players and their belief. Currently its down....way down. It won't stay down forever, 3 easier games coming up could be all thats required to restore confidence levels in the players, coach and club as a whole. We are a fickle bunch.....well most of us.
Now to the "but team xxxxxx are ahead of us now" comments. Sure, and we are ahead of Collingwood now.....and Hawthorn....and...Its all subjective and irrelevant. It makes supporters feel better (or worse depending on your inclination) to play that game. Same is done with individual players too. Ultimately it means little. You want to look at up and down form, look at the thread i posted the link at before.....go to the section on highest losing margins. All of those clubs that have gone past us....and even the ones that were well ahead of us, have had worst days than we have. Some HUGE losses there. West Coast got beaten by the cats by 97 points a few weeks ago. Remember that roller coaster?
So yes, i look at trends, statistics and past history to form my view that success is not that far away.
However, that is also in line with using my eyes to see the same thing you describe, disappointment from the players, despair even. BUT.....that doesn't last.
There will come a time when the tables turn and TBH that is half my point in all of this.
We are (supposedly) playing so bad that everybody needs to be sacked. Take the emotive alarmist nature out of it and you'll find that....
We are down on form.
We are down on confidence.
We are down on fitness.
We are down on personnel.
....and despite all of that we are in each and every match.
There have been games we have lost which we won the I50 count.
There have been games we have lost which we won the scoring shots.
There have been games we have lost which happened in the space of 5 minutes.
How can you see all that and NOT realise that with a bit of luck and a fair chunk of confidence that results will change.
Every man and his dog will tell you why we are bad.....but it doesn't translate to the scoreboard.
Re: Post Game Analysis: AFL 2021 Rd 12: Carlton vs West Coast - Thryleon - 06-07-2021
Look what Richmond did to essendon on Saturday.
Bit of an arm wrestle but went through the gears and destroyed them in 10 minutes. Went from 3 points down to 7 goals up in the blink of an eye.
Whilst I didn't think we were on top against them, we did way better than that and they weren't all half injured in round 1.
Re: Post Game Analysis: AFL 2021 Rd 12: Carlton vs West Coast - LoveNavy - 06-07-2021
While there may be more to it, the lack of initial support for Newman when he crashed head first is concerning.
Re: Post Game Analysis: AFL 2021 Rd 12: Carlton vs West Coast - capcom - 06-07-2021
Individuals. Not a "team"