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+--- Thread: Post Game Pondering: AFL 2020 Rd 9: Carlton vs Hawthorn (/thread-4827.html)
Re: Post Game Pondering: AFL 2020 Rd 9: Carlton vs Hawthorn - Milhanna13 - 08-03-2020
(08-01-2020, 12:24 AM)Micky0 link Wrote:We were on top ,that first quarter was what my dreams are made of. Then our momentum stopped - because of 3 in a row turnovers under zero pressure by our guys. Literally kicking it directly to a hawk on his own. then the backs get caught out of position and they get goals.
The fumble from Kennedy in the first Q, 45 out, directly in front, about to run into an open goal (when it had just been Pitto, to Cripps, dance a couple of Hawks, handball to a running Kennedy, plop) - felt HUGE at the time..... would have made it 6 goals to none, and the ease with which that goal should have been kicked would have been a heartbreaker for the Hawks.
But no, he drops it, and you could feel momentum swinging thru the TV.
Re: Post Game Pondering: AFL 2020 Rd 9: Carlton vs Hawthorn - laj - 08-03-2020
(08-03-2020, 04:33 AM)Gointocarlton link Wrote:I read this on another forum, I thought this poster provided a very good assessment..
This is not my post but somebody elses (excuse the typos, I copied and pasted verbatim):
"I thought watching the game was frustrating. Geez reading alot of dribble on here.
Any chance we can have a proper disection of the game instead of we r no good this blokes a dud blah blah blah. Surely we r better than that.
1st qtr 7 turnovers which is elite.
2nd qtr 13 of which the majority were unforced..not a direct result of Hawthorn pressure.
2nh half 41...world record pace.
Heres a fact not an opinion. We have less turnovers when we score heavily..logical. Again as in first qtr.
Ive been on here so often talking about our mfield.
This is still our biggest issue. When the pace is on in the game there is less squeezing of space and when we go quick we often get through and score.
Its not coincidence we r playing on quick ..its what Teague wants. All our issue happen when the game slows and the opp squeeze space. We just carnt get through and we turnover the ball horribly consistently trying to penetrate. Teague doesnt want our backs kicking from a stationay position..holding the ball thinking thinking thinking. He knows whats gunna happen we all do. If the reason he has samo playing there..If u recall at half time v port he gave an interview where he said he told them that if they carnt go quick he wants to go long very long down the line. But his preference is to go quick.
This is why i say our mfield is the issue. We just dont have enough depth of exp or quality yet to keep the pace on long enough in games. This has gotten better but still needs to go up a couple more notches. Its a smart game plan esp with the talls we have..give em more chances to go 1 on 1 but also limits the thinking guys have to do eith the footy..the more u think more chance u have of turning it over.
Our whole season have reflected this...we have scored in chunks very quicly and conceded in chunks very quickly against all levels of teams. So Teagues challenge for the forseeable future is to get OUR style for long enough to win games until this depth and exp grows. Fisher Dow Philp Kemp LOB stocker are still mids we have who could help this.
So maybe in the short term we could
Rotate more guys through the mfield for longer like martin cunners gibbo eddy
Playing de koning who is a genuine ruck and can rest pitt a bit more instead of more
Maybe doc or willo for a spell
Maybe rotating guys from game to game to keep them fresher
Maybe giving cripps the dusty role fulltime
This all could happen and maybe u guys have a few others..but i think teaguey is reluctant to do this too much cause hes trying to build continuity with game plan and blokes playing certain roles
So unfortunatley we may see these fluctuations in games continue fir a while yet unless he can come up with something in the gameplan which allows us to at the very least get inside 50s because as i said at the start when ball is in hand of alot of our blokes and they had to think their way through the kick we all know whats coming.
Just all think Richmond. As bout as average a team to win a flag based on pure talent as there has been in the last 40 yrs. 4 yrs ago they had blokes who couldnt hit the side of the barn from 5 m. Going nowhere with a gamellan which required precise kicking. Gone to the simllest gamepkan u can have. Havent looked back
And havent looked back cause they can llay it for longer than their opp can play theirs. Thats teagues challenge in the short term..he need to get a little creative"
On the latter, nothing like the chaos ball going forward, throws out the opposition interceptors and as long as there is tremendous F50 pressure it becomes tough for the opposition to get it out of the defensive 50. There's been games we have been very good with our F50 pressure when switched on but when not quite so switched on we seem to find the opposition going forward with precision. Also when switched on, eg Geelong, Dogs, our ball use and efficiency into the F50 was, as Bevo said, off the charts. It's either the best going or the worst going. Probably needs time to properly establish our plan and consistency, both physically and mentally.
What happened last week, I don't know. It's possible with all the hubs shifting and moving so sides were just mentally and physically flat. We just fell away so whether we were tired. Not sure. Usually when we are committed out of the blocks from the start we rarely lose. If we do it's in a very competitive fashion. So don't know what happened Friday. While learning from it best to not get caught up either. It's just one week and every side turns in shockers occasionally. Even in our greatest era, 1979-82 we turned in some horrors. It happens. Do it for a few weeks then it's a concern.
Re: Post Game Pondering: AFL 2020 Rd 9: Carlton vs Hawthorn - Lods - 08-03-2020
(08-03-2020, 03:04 AM)LP link Wrote:While in perception it may be true, in reality Teague is still just a beginner for a variety of reasons, he needs to be judged in his 3rd year.
Why do I think this;
- Firstly, he is a newbie with new tricks, opposition coaches are yet to see or learn them, it takes a few games before they are prepared for coaching against Teague so in the short term he has an advantage in this area. The Dawks are probably his worst case, as BB has all the inside guff so Teague's advantage is minimised!
- Secondly, he is yet to be exposed to all the tricks of opposition coaches so he has to learn them, this is his big disadvantage. It's easy to learn about opposition players, even your own players, you have so much video available on them. But it is too hard to tell from video what was a coaches move and what was a player acting with initiative.
- Thirdly, our team still has relatively little experience of Teague's style and what works and what doesn't. So the players will do stuff outside the plan, acting with initiative or in the old ways that they think might help, it might help but it can also unravel Teague's plans. It takes a season or two to get this right.
- Finally, Teague has to demonstrate that once opposition coaches get a handle on his style that he can do something outside the box. Something that sets his team free of opposition countermeasures. It's not something you can learn overnight, and I doubt you can ever learn it as 2IC no matter how long you've been there. It's a big chair thing, and is as much about player management as it is about team tactics.
Teague isn't in any immediate strife....and two years+ is probably about the time frame before any serious moves come.
I probably should have added a few smiley emoticons with my 'honeymoon over' comments.
It was a bit of 'self-forum depreciation'
I was thinking more in terms of the way the forums/facebook pages tend to work.
Any new coach gets a bit of a honeymoon period but then slowly the criticisms come....just a trickle at the start but if there is lack of success that criticism grows.
The 'taller the poppy' the quicker the criticism.
That's the very core of these places...we all see things a little differently. We sometimes don't consider aspects before others point them out.
A coach's demise is not usually a sudden thing. It's a trickle effect and very much result driven.
That's why the "We have to give them time!" argument for officials, admin, coaches and players doesn't really fit the discussion/ forum model.
It's an ongoing evaluation process.
Teague certainly has a few years to prove himself but as he works to create success his performance will continue to attract scrutiny...and that will be very much based on performance and results.
That's the nature of his job.
Re: Post Game Pondering: AFL 2020 Rd 9: Carlton vs Hawthorn - Baggers - 08-03-2020
(08-03-2020, 04:33 AM)Gointocarlton link Wrote:I read this on another forum, I thought this poster provided a very good assessment.
This is not my post but somebody elses (excuse the typos, I copied and pasted verbatim):
"I thought watching the game was frustrating. Geez reading alot of dribble on here.
Any chance we can have a proper disection of the game instead of we r no good this blokes a dud blah blah blah. Surely we r better than that.
1st qtr 7 turnovers which is elite.
2nd qtr 13 of which the majority were unforced..not a direct result of Hawthorn pressure.
2nh half 41...world record pace.
Heres a fact not an opinion. We have less turnovers when we score heavily..logical. Again as in first qtr.
Ive been on here so often talking about our mfield.
This is still our biggest issue. When the pace is on in the game there is less squeezing of space and when we go quick we often get through and score.
Its not coincidence we r playing on quick ..its what Teague wants. All our issue happen when the game slows and the opp squeeze space. We just carnt get through and we turnover the ball horribly consistently trying to penetrate. Teague doesnt want our backs kicking from a stationay position..holding the ball thinking thinking thinking. He knows whats gunna happen we all do. If the reason he has samo playing there..If u recall at half time v port he gave an interview where he said he told them that if they carnt go quick he wants to go long very long down the line. But his preference is to go quick.
This is why i say our mfield is the issue. We just dont have enough depth of exp or quality yet to keep the pace on long enough in games. This has gotten better but still needs to go up a couple more notches. Its a smart game plan esp with the talls we have..give em more chances to go 1 on 1 but also limits the thinking guys have to do eith the footy..the more u think more chance u have of turning it over.
Our whole season have reflected this...we have scored in chunks very quicly and conceded in chunks very quickly against all levels of teams. So Teagues challenge for the forseeable future is to get OUR style for long enough to win games until this depth and exp grows. Fisher Dow Philp Kemp LOB stocker are still mids we have who could help this.
So maybe in the short term we could
Rotate more guys through the mfield for longer like martin cunners gibbo eddy
Playing de koning who is a genuine ruck and can rest pitt a bit more instead of more
Maybe doc or willo for a spell
Maybe rotating guys from game to game to keep them fresher
Maybe giving cripps the dusty role fulltime
This all could happen and maybe u guys have a few others..but i think teaguey is reluctant to do this too much cause hes trying to build continuity with game plan and blokes playing certain roles
So unfortunatley we may see these fluctuations in games continue fir a while yet unless he can come up with something in the gameplan which allows us to at the very least get inside 50s because as i said at the start when ball is in hand of alot of our blokes and they had to think their way through the kick we all know whats coming.
Just all think Richmond. As bout as average a team to win a flag based on pure talent as there has been in the last 40 yrs. 4 yrs ago they had blokes who couldnt hit the side of the barn from 5 m. Going nowhere with a gamellan which required precise kicking. Gone to the simllest gamepkan u can have. Havent looked back
And havent looked back cause they can llay it for longer than their opp can play theirs. Thats teagues challenge in the short term..he need to get a little creative"
Likewise, I went for a look around in other forums and there were a number of well thought out contributions like this one. Thanks for posting it GTC.
There was another one, long read, also well thought out that explained in detail how when opposition sides change gears - we're stuffed, and, like this contribution, the responsibility for our Jekyll and Hyde performances within games lies with our mids and leaders. Not enough training on what to do when opposition sides slow our game (and we shyte ourselves - only because we don't know what to do, not because we're not capable (midfield coaches, step forward please)). Other contributions also identified the problem with our leadership / midfield (again, mid-field coaches, step forward please!).
Also identified was the curious decision to not play recognised mids through the midfield more often... ie Gibbons, Cuningham and so on.
And the lack of boldness at the selection table and during games - is far too conservative.
Re: Post Game Pondering: AFL 2020 Rd 9: Carlton vs Hawthorn - ElwoodBlues1 - 08-03-2020
Teague has this year and another IMO, it usually depends on what coaches are available as well....
You can spin how we played and make excuses all you like vs Hawthorn but we are their bunny in cricket terms
and they feel they can take us no matter what we put on the scoreboard, bit like the old Windies teams of the eighties..no matter what we make we will bowl you out for less.
Is it 21 from the last 24 games for the Hawks?...
So maybe you just have to concede there are some teams that are your bogey team who will always do well against you no matter what.Bulldogs were that team when I was young, we had great teams but the Dogs would always trouble us especially at Whitten oval....
re: The Hawks midfield....Ceglar/McEvoy, Mitchell, OMeara, Shiels,Worpel, Smith with Burgoyne and Wingard having the odd run through there too....not shabby at all IMO. I wouldnt be backing Gibbons, Cuningham, Kennedy to have much impact vs that group.
Not much else at the Hawks but the midfield is where the quality is and where we lost the game IMO.
Re: Post Game Pondering: AFL 2020 Rd 9: Carlton vs Hawthorn - Lods - 08-03-2020
(08-03-2020, 03:04 AM)LP link Wrote:.....Firstly, he is a newbie with new tricks, opposition coaches are yet to see or learn them, it takes a few games before they are prepared for coaching against Teague so in the short term he has an advantage in this area. The Dawks are probably his worst case, as BB has all the inside guff so Teague's advantage is minimised!
I'm not sure whether others have mentioned it but, rate him or not, Bolton's knowledge of coach and players would have been an advantage.
Re: Post Game Pondering: AFL 2020 Rd 9: Carlton vs Hawthorn - Gointocarlton - 08-03-2020
(08-03-2020, 08:54 AM)Lods link Wrote:I'm not sure whether others have mentioned it but, rate him or not, Bolton's knowledge of coach and players would have been an advantage.Don't want to sound like FIGJAM but I think I mentioned it in the pre game.
Re: Post Game Pondering: AFL 2020 Rd 9: Carlton vs Hawthorn - crashlander - 08-03-2020
Bolton's input to Hawthorn was very important in my humble opinion.
Re: Post Game Pondering: AFL 2020 Rd 9: Carlton vs Hawthorn - crashlander - 08-03-2020
Fair dinkum we started well!
Even Moore looked good in that first quarter.
Newnes was very good in the 1st quarter.
Their first goal was bad: we let Smith get away with shepherding on the mark.
Not picking up our men. they are running too freely.
Fair dunkum they whinge!
Not holding our marks. None of the defenders.
We just didn't get the ball after quarter time. Most of our players had maybe 2/3 of their possessions in the first quarter.
Re: Post Game Pondering: AFL 2020 Rd 9: Carlton vs Hawthorn - Gointocarlton - 08-03-2020
(08-03-2020, 09:55 AM)crashlander link Wrote:Fair dinkum we started well!We literally all just stopped after that 5th goal. When we are on, its team footy, everyone contributes whether its a goal, a behind, a smother, a tackle, a knock on to advantage. After that 5th goal to the end of the games, many of our blokes either didnt touch the footy or did SFA.
Even Moore looked good in that first quarter.
Newnes was very good in the 1st quarter.
Their first goal was bad: we let Smith get away with shepherding on the mark.
Not picking up our men. they are running too freely.
Fair dunkum they whinge!
Not holding our marks. None of the defenders.
We just didn't get the ball after quarter time. Most of our players had maybe 2/3 of their possessions in the first quarter.