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Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - mateinone - 05-17-2017
(05-17-2017, 11:08 PM)PaulP link Wrote:I liked Bernie Sanders. And whilst i was no Hilary fan, she was at least aware of the significance of office.
If the establishment must be sent a message, this is a pretty severe way of doing it.
It is, but it is almost what is needed at times.
Take the French Revolution.. Was that a good thing?
Well in the immediate aftermath, almost certainly no...
There was the Reign of Terror to follow as a direct result and absolute chaos, but in the long run.. yes.
The country and it's people were better off.
It can also backfire and some would suggest the Russian Revolution is an example, with the oppression potentially the power corrupting Lenin (and more significantly Stalin) so that the people were more oppressed than they were under Tsarist rule.
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - PaulP - 05-17-2017
(05-17-2017, 11:16 PM)mateinone link Wrote:It is, but it is almost what is needed at times.
Take the French Revolution.. Was that a good thing?
Well in the immediate aftermath, almost certainly no...
There was the Reign of Terror to follow as a direct result and absolute chaos, but in the long run.. yes.
The country and it's people were better off.
It can also backfire and some would suggest the Russian Revolution is an example, with the oppression potentially the power corrupting Lenin (and more significantly Stalin) so that the people were more oppressed than they were under Tsarist rule.
Fair points MIO, and I agree with both examples. Some say (and I agree) that the Russian Revolution dealt socialism a severe blow, from which it has yet to recover. If socialism means anything, it means worker control over the means of production. This was never achieved under Lenin. The Leninist school of thought was actually pretty anti worker. His approach was that you had the smart guys (Lenin etc. ) who were supposed to lead the dumb Slavs to a better future. In fact Lenin acted pretty quickly in stamping out worker unions etc. People who look at Russia as proof that Socialism is bad completely miss the point IMO.
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - mateinone - 05-17-2017
Yeah it is a topic I am fairly interested in and I am a fan of Lenin (to a degree...), but he was completely ineffectual as a leader and you are right in saying that Russia never achieved or come close to achieving the goal they set out to achieve when they first set out to overthrow the monarchy.
I won't stray too far off topic, but I think Lenin genuinely wanted to achieve a Utopian world where the collective worked for each other, with all equal etc when he went down the path and I admire his determination in setting his life on that course, but (in a way similar to Lech Walesa in Poland), he was far better at inspiring and achieving revolution, than he was in ruling.
I don't know there has even been a country ruled on true socialist principles and I don't know that there ever will be. But... I think that is as far off the Trump topic as I will go
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - Mav - 05-17-2017
DOJ Appoints Special Prosecutor To Investigate Trump Campaign’s Russia Ties, HuffPost, 17/5.
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - cookie2 - 05-17-2017
http://www.theage.com.au/world/exfbi-chief-robert-mueller-to-oversee-probe-of-russian-interference-in-election-20170517-gw7dyz.html
Opps - Mav beat me to it.
This should be interesting.
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - cookie2 - 05-17-2017
(05-17-2017, 11:33 PM)mateinone link Wrote:Yeah it is a topic I am fairly interested in and I am a fan of Lenin (to a degree...), but he was completely ineffectual as a leader and you are right in saying that Russia never achieved or come close to achieving the goal they set out to achieve when they first set out to overthrow the monarchy.
I won't stray too far off topic, but I think Lenin genuinely wanted to achieve a Utopian world where the collective worked for each other, with all equal etc when he went down the path and I admire his determination in setting his life on that course, but (in a way similar to Lech Walesa in Poland), he was far better at inspiring and achieving revolution, than he was in ruling.
I don't know there has even been a country ruled on true socialist principles and I don't know that there ever will be. But... I think that is as far off the Trump topic as I will go
Some historians believe that Lenin was Jewish and a he, and the Russian Revolution, were primarily part of Zionist plan to undermine the christian west and achieve dominance.
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - Mav - 05-18-2017
Yep, bad news for Trump. Special Counsel are like runaway trains - once they get under way, you never know where they'll end up. For instance, the Republicans appointed Ken Starr to look into the Whitewater land deal and suggestion that there was something fishy about the death of Vince Foster. That was a bust, but along the way Starr started looking into Clinton's alleged sexual misconduct with women. That ended up with Clinton impeached over lying about Monica Lewinsky. In other words, they are much harder to control than Royal Commissioners who can often be forced to ignore embarrassing issues by restricting their terms of reference
Trump can sack a Special Counsel but sacking Archibald Cox, the special counsel investigating Watergate, didn't do Nixon much good.
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - mateinone - 05-18-2017
Do you have some sources?
In all the readings I have done I have never seen anything to suggest his actions where inspired by the Zionists. Trotsky was of course Jewish, but again I don't think his actions were aimed at creating any sort of Jewish state, which Russia would not ever have become even if it was an intent.
The primary motivation in starting Lenin down this course was the assassination of his brother after his attempted assassination of Alexander III.
I have read some far fetched things, but I would be really interested to know which historians (as opposed to crackpots) do claim his actions where part of this greater Zionist movement.
Oh, any reference to Lenin having a Jewish heritage doesn't support his actions therefore naturally being for Zionists aims.
Perhaps another topic for Lenin/Russia/Revolutions etc? ;D
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - mateinone - 05-18-2017
Others have already linked and referenced the material, but yes Trump looks to be in a lot of trouble at the moment, the walls are closing in fast... Does he jump or is he pushed? That seems to be the biggest question at the moment
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - Mav - 05-18-2017
The reaction to the appointment is mixed although no one has anything less than the highest regard for Mueller.
The immediate effect may be to kill off public hearings. For instance, it looked like Comey was to testify in open session in Congress and his memos were going to be subpoenad. That was likely to be massive as Comey would have made public any attempts Trump may have made to protect Flynn. It seems that it's now likely that Comey will decline to testify at the request of his old mate Mueller. Everyone seems to believe that Mueller's investigation will maintain absolute secrecy during its investigations. And at the end of the day, Mueller will either say indictments should follow or that there will be no indictments. In other words, there will be no big press conference like the one Comey held. Some believe, though, that he might send a final report to Congress as Starr and other Special Counsel did.
The Democrats want a select committee which will look into the wider issue of Russian interference (as with the Select Committee into Watergate).
Republican members of Congress will probably be the happiest as they're no longer being called on to do something and, at least in the short term, the public revelations will slow down. They can now restrict congressional hearings out of supposed deference to Mueller's investigation.
On the other hand, Mueller will be able to command far greater resources than the Congressional investigations that are currently under way.