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+--- Thread: The Great Ruck Debate. (/thread-6556.html)
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - madbluboy - 07-17-2024
Pittonet is the best ruck in the comp pre clearance.
TDK is 4th.
Neither are top 5 post clearance.
Gawn was 5th pre clearance and number 1 post clearance.
Jackson was the only other ruck top 5 in both, his team mate Darcy was top 5 pre clearance.
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - Baggers - 07-17-2024
Seems that we have a perplexing issue with Pitto and TDK - they're both number 1 ruckmen, and really good, albeit in different ways. However neither is overly effective as a 2nd banana - seems unfair not to run either of them as the number 1 ruckman. Ideally you'd run the pair of them on and off the interchange... but that aint practical. Another conundrum.
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - Lods - 07-17-2024
So here's where we are at in my opinion.
We can debate this until the cows come home.
We have two AFL standard ruckman.
Both with different skill sets.
Both high up in certain aspects of ruck work.
Some say two rucks can't work.
But rather than saying two rucks can't work...
I think a really good coaching group should be able to find a way to 'make it work'.
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - LP - 07-18-2024
(07-17-2024, 10:54 PM)Baggers date Wrote:Ideally you'd run the pair of them on and off the interchange... but that aint practical. Another conundrum.That's not how it works now, that claim is used by the anti-ruck duo brigade to cast doubt.
The reality is TDK is generally in a complex rotation with Charlie and Harry, but it's no more complex than the D50 or Midfield rotations. Pitto shares bench time mostly from Harry, Charlie, TDK bench time. Technically it won't matter who we have as the 3rd tall in that rotation, the impact on the bench is the same, whether it's a ruck or another KPP like SoJ, Young or Durdin. What changes from the choice of who is in the squad is how they can be used on the field and who they can substitute for in a crisis!
It quite foolish to think you can have an "All In" approach and leave one significant segment of the zones without a viable back plan. For me it's not viable for Harry to be our ruck backup plan, in fact it's disastrous to withdraw Harry from F50 if our solo ruck goes down, the flow on impact to Charlie and the F50 as well as the diminished ruck / midfield presence is almost impossible to overcome against a well organised opponent. Our F50 strength is the Twin Towers, when we go solo ruck, even without unexpected injuries, we actively degrade one of our key strengths.
Then you have the absurdity of the claim that when we solo ruck a Mid like Cripps get extra bench time, it's both worthless and meaningless claim. In reality when we solo ruck it's Cripps who ends up doing some of the part-time ruck role, if anything his load goes up when we solo ruck, he's not fresher at all!
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - DJC - 07-18-2024
(07-17-2024, 08:09 AM)kruddler link Wrote:When we play both TOMs minutes has suffered?
Go back and check your data on that one.
If you want to go head to head, its hard for the reasons we've both outlined.
So thats why i included some other of the best 'solo' rucks for comparison.
For someone with an inability to take a mark, he stacks up pretty well with some of the best.
I suggest if you normalise that out, you'll find that he is even better than those averages suggest.
All i'm saying is you are selling Pittonet short.
Tom's time on the ground doesn't fluctuate that much, regardless of whether he's rucking solo or in tandem with Pitto, and it generally hovers between 78-80%. His lowest was 68% against the Swans when Pitto had 78%. He had 80% TOG against the Giants in round 6 and Pitto had 68%. Pitto's time on the ground is less and fluctuates quite a bit; 50-78%.
It's not so much time on the ground that matters when playing two ruckmen, it's the impact they have when "resting". When Tom is is playing as a tall forward, he gets up the ground like Harry does, impacts contests and takes some ruck contests, leaving Pitto behind the ball. When Pitto is "resting", he's more likely to be on the pine because he isn't able to impact contests to the same extent as Tom.
The crux of the two rucks scenario is having two ruckmen who are complementary and can have an impact when not rucking. We've had a couple of games this season where our two rucks worked very well and a couple where one or the other didn't do much. Melbourne couldn't get it to work when they had arguably the two best ruckmen in the competition in their 22 but they weren't all that complementary. Our two are very much a work in progress and it's getting more impact from Pitto when he's not in ruck contests that needs more work.
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - kruddler - 07-18-2024
(07-18-2024, 01:43 AM)DJC link Wrote:Tom's time on the ground doesn't fluctuate that much, regardless of whether he's rucking solo or in tandem with Pitto, and it generally hovers between 78-80%. His lowest was 68% against the Swans when Pitto had 78%. He had 80% TOG against the Giants in round 6 and Pitto had 68%. Pitto's time on the ground is less and fluctuates quite a bit; 50-78%.
It's not so much time on the ground that matters when playing two ruckmen, it's the impact they have when "resting". When Tom is is playing as a tall forward, he gets up the ground like Harry does, impacts contests and takes some ruck contests, leaving Pitto behind the ball. When Pitto is "resting", he's more likely to be on the pine because he isn't able to impact contests to the same extent as Tom.
The crux of the two rucks scenario is having two ruckmen who are complementary and can have an impact when not rucking. We've had a couple of games this season where our two rucks worked very well and a couple where one or the other didn't do much. Melbourne couldn't get it to work when they had arguably the two best ruckmen in the competition in their 22 but they weren't all that complementary. Our two are very much a work in progress and it's getting more impact from Pitto when he's not in ruck contests that needs more work.
Are you arguing with me or trying to summarise everything i've been saying over the years?
I've done analysis on TOG% for both before.
Short version equates to basically this.
In a game where you have 2 genuine rucks, a ruck is taking up a spot on the bench for a full quarter MORE than if you have 1 ruck.
So that means there is 1/4 worth of time LESS rotation for others to share. (30 minutes more time others play apread across them).
When you go one step further and realise that an extra small would take place of the ruck on top of that (in the 1 ruck model) you basically get a whole extra player/rotation to add to that, so basically 75% game time from the extra mid.
So you have an extra mid for the whole game more rotation wise
vs
A genuine ruck over a backup ruck for 25% of the game and largely hiding them for the other 75% or hoping they can fit in.
....and people also try and debate how pointless the ruck stats are.....but still want the 2nd ruck over an additional mid.
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - madbluboy - 07-18-2024
I used to be pro 2 rucks but have changed camps.
I would play TDK alone unless one of Charlie or Harry are missing.
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - kruddler - 07-18-2024
(07-18-2024, 01:20 AM)LP link Wrote:That's not how it works now, that claim is used by the anti-ruck duo brigade to cast doubt.An opinion, not a fact.
Stats for TOG show otherwise.
(07-18-2024, 01:20 AM)LP link Wrote:The reality is TDK is generally in a complex rotation with Charlie and Harry, but it's no more complex than the D50 or Midfield rotations. Pitto shares bench time mostly from Harry, Charlie, TDK bench time. Technically it won't matter who we have as the 3rd tall in that rotation, the impact on the bench is the same, whether it's a ruck or another KPP like SoJ, Young or Durdin. What changes from the choice of who is in the squad is how they can be used on the field and who they can substitute for in a crisis!Ooh, 'complex' rotations you say. Tricky.
Your 'reality' is your own.
Charlie and Harrys game time doesn't change based on how many rucks we play. Charlie plays 90%+ every week, and every week he hasn't its because he is off getting treatment or being subbed off from an injury. Similar with Harry....even when he is rucking.
So variability of bench time for KPPs is non-existent in the 2 ruck debate, apart from rucks themselves.
So given that, whether its a ruck or another KPP (SOS, Young) the time on ground vs time on bench is solely down to how good that player is in another position. THIS is exactly why its more beneficial to use players who get picked based on their position to 'part-time' as a ruck, then using shoehorning a 'full-time ruck' into another position part time. Our output suffers.
Or if we don't use a '3rd tall option' as backup ruck and use existing players Harry, Cripps, Kennedy, we get the full benefit of a '2nd ruck replacement bonus mid' to play with.
(07-18-2024, 01:20 AM)LP link Wrote:It quite foolish to think you can have an "All In" approach and leave one significant segment of the zones without a viable back plan. For me it's not viable for Harry to be our ruck backup plan, in fact it's disastrous to withdraw Harry from F50 if our solo ruck goes down, the flow on impact to Charlie and the F50 as well as the diminished ruck / midfield presence is almost impossible to overcome against a well organised opponent. Our F50 strength is the Twin Towers, when we go solo ruck, even without unexpected injuries, we actively degrade one of our key strengths.'Disastrous'. Enough with the emotive BS language.
As mentioned previously, we've won games with no rucks before. Not much of a disaster was it.
How quick you forget that at the start of the year, Harrys return to form was actually put down to his ability to run free in the ruck and get his confidence back. It would be a disaster if we couldn't do that!
(07-18-2024, 01:20 AM)LP link Wrote:Then you have the absurdity of the claim that when we solo ruck a Mid like Cripps get extra bench time, it's both worthless and meaningless claim. In reality when we solo ruck it's Cripps who ends up doing some of the part-time ruck role, if anything his load goes up when we solo ruck, he's not fresher at all!'Absurdity'. More emotive BS language.
I've shown you mathematical proof of this numerous times. You simply choose not to reply and spout oh i never saw that.
I can tell everyone in advance which posts you will magically 'not see' and have actually done that. If you get disproven, you stick your head in the sand and pretend it never happened.
Again, have a look at Cripps TOG. Take notice of any peaks and troughs week to week and see if that translates to 1 ruck vs 2.
He spends the same amount of time on ground for both and doesn't change at all with 'extra load' of rucking. He is in the contest the same amount. Some of that he is rucking.
In fact his biggest TOG game was against Geelong, the first game.
Thats when we had both TDK and Pitto.
Why might that be?
Probably because there was less rest time available because it was taken up by an extra ruck. Who would've thunk it.
So not only are you wrong with extra load on mids, you are doubley wrong because they get less!
Absurd. Disastrous.
Factually incorrect
I'm surprised you didn't go with the 'poor KPP will get hurt in the ruck' angle you often spout as well.
Although thats been disproven as well since Harry gets himself crunched every game as it is, and its playing his NORMAL position of key forward. We might actually be doing his body good by letting him ruck keeping him fitter and fresher. But you don't discuss that anymore. Wonder why?
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - kruddler - 07-18-2024
(07-18-2024, 03:56 AM)madbluboy link Wrote:I used to be pro 2 rucks but have changed camps.
I would play TDK alone unless one of Charlie or Harry are missing.
The camp seems to be getting bigger.
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - madbluboy - 07-18-2024
(07-18-2024, 04:10 AM)kruddler link Wrote:The camp seems to be getting bigger.
I changed last year after we smashed Freo and Hawthorn with Young and SOS.