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+--- Thread: Where do you think Carlton will finish in 2017? (/thread-3168.html)
Re: Where do you think Carlton will finish in 2017? - blue4life - 04-25-2017
Appointing a club stalwart as coach almost always ends in tears, in recent times it has for Voss, Ratten and Hird and it no doubt will for Buckley, you can count on one hand the times that it's worked over the last 30 years.
When the time comes it's always postponed too long and then when the trigger is pulled it's like shooting Bambi, and divides supporters and members.
It's just not a good idea.
Re: Where do you think Carlton will finish in 2017? - PaulP - 04-25-2017
(04-25-2017, 10:52 PM)blue4life link Wrote:Appointing a club stalwart as coach almost always ends in tears, in recent times it has for Voss, Ratten and Hird and it no doubt will for Buckley, you can count on one hand the times that it's worked over the last 30 years.
When the time comes it's always postponed too long and then when the trigger is pulled it's like shooting Bambi, and divides supporters and members.
It's just not a good idea.
Why do you think that is ?
Re: Where do you think Carlton will finish in 2017? - PaulP - 04-25-2017
(04-25-2017, 10:43 PM)Thryleon link Wrote:That's because roos had had enough of being the senior coach and wanted to hand over the reigns.
You force a succession plan on anyone and they won't like it.
It's effectively training your replacement to do your job most likely before you believe your time is up.
At Collingwood it made no sense to pull that reign at that time. First flag won, finals series looming, minor premiership in reach and a fairly good chance at the flag again. They should have postponed it a couple of years.
All coaches are employees of a football club. It's not up to them to decide when it's time to go. MM's best was behind him. The Pies could see it, and so could all the other clubs that were looking for a senior coach in that time, except of course for the lazy, soft option, quick fix kings.
Supporters will tolerate any amount of failure if they support the regime - compare the 2012 and 2013 W/L and %. Same W/L in both seasons, but 2012 has a better %. Yet 2012 was such a disaster that the coach had to go, bu 2013 gets a pass mark. What a load of farking crap.
Re: Where do you think Carlton will finish in 2017? - Thryleon - 04-25-2017
Probably because the selection process is biased and the candidate selected has spent too long in one environment and is too close to the playing group.
Looking at how Collingwood dismantled a premiership outfit including many young players shows that it's a terrible idea.
They have geared their list at being good within the next couple of years to save Buckley his job rather than challenge for a flag.
Insanity given what the Giants look like.
(04-25-2017, 11:04 PM)PaulP link Wrote:All coaches are employees of a football club. It's not up to them to decide when it's time to go. MM's best was behind him. The Pies could see it, and so could all the other clubs that were looking for a senior coach in that time, except of course for the lazy, soft option, quick fix kings.
Supporters will tolerate any amount of failure if they support the regime - compare the 2012 and 2013 W/L and %. Same W/L in both seasons, but 2012 has a better %. Yet 2012 was such a disaster that the coach had to go, bu 2013 gets a pass mark. What a load of farking crap.
You say that to anyone in any job and they will tell you to stick it, and walk out leaving you with all their intellectual property.
Football clubs are a bit different but it's still not a good idea, in any profession.
Had he not come to our football club, this point would not be lost on you. But you're too busy being anti mick Malthouse to appreciate what I'm actually saying here.
Re: Where do you think Carlton will finish in 2017? - PaulP - 04-25-2017
(04-25-2017, 11:05 PM)Thryleon link Wrote:Probably because the selection process is biased and the candidate selected has spent too long in one environment and is too close to the playing group.
Looking at how Collingwood dismantled a premiership outfit including many young players shows that it's a terrible idea.
They have geared their list at being good within the next couple of years to save Buckley his job rather than challenge for a flag.
Insanity given what the Giants look like.
You say that to anyone in any job and they will tell you to stick it, and walk out leaving you with all their intellectual property.
Football clubs are a bit different but it's still not a good idea, in any profession.
Had he not come to our football club, this point would not be lost on you. But you're too busy being anti mick Malthouse to appreciate what I'm actually saying here.
I'm too busy looking at poor results, demoralized supporters, poor media performances, dodgy trades, and a few other things besides. His record was very good, but all players and coaches get to a point where their heart's not in it, and where they just can't or won't do what's required. Why is it that in the 12 months he was out of the game, that no other club showed any interest ? Why is it that we were the only ones ? Why is it when we moved him on, once again no other club showed any interest ? Why is it that when he threw his hat in the ring for the Crows job, they ignored him ?
The rest of the AFL world is telling you something, and you ought to pay attention.
Re: Where do you think Carlton will finish in 2017? - blue4life - 04-26-2017
(04-25-2017, 11:04 PM)PaulP link Wrote:All coaches are employees of a football club. It's not up to them to decide when it's time to go. MM's best was behind him. The Pies could see it, and so could all the other clubs that were looking for a senior coach in that time, except of course for the lazy, soft option, quick fix kings.
Malthouse coached Collingwood to a flag and runner up in the two years prior to his sacking, it defies logic to say that his best was behind him 12 months later.
I'm not implying that Malthouse was the right appointment for Carlton at the time any more than Ratten was before him, but blaming Malthouse for our current plight is missing the point in my opinion.
No coach has succeeded at Carlton for two decades, have they all been duds?
Re: Where do you think Carlton will finish in 2017? - LP - 04-26-2017
(04-26-2017, 12:49 AM)blue4life link Wrote:No coach has succeeded at Carlton for two decades, have they all been duds?
So we fail because of the club and not primarily because of the coaches, is that your point? If so, I tend to agree, but I think MM was an exception.
I think the primary problem has been our player development, along with some lingering impacts from the AFL TPP Penalties, which left us as an undesirable destination for players. For a long time we didn't develop players, we had a harvesting attitude and that hindered our player development. Players no longer want to play for Carlton.
As far as I know, we remain the only AFL Club under full time AFL audit. Maybe that tells you something about why experienced AFL players and managers choose to move players to other clubs! No opportunity, or less opportunity, to bend the rules at Carlton than elsewhere!
Also, I am not sure the NBs relationship is helping us all that much! It seems to me the Victorian AFL clubs which are most successful are the clubs which effectively have autonomy over standalone VFL teams.
Re: Where do you think Carlton will finish in 2017? - PaulP - 04-26-2017
(04-26-2017, 12:49 AM)blue4life link Wrote:Malthouse coached Collingwood to a flag and runner up in the two years prior to his sacking, it defies logic to say that his best was behind him 12 months later.
I'm not implying that Malthouse was the right appointment for Carlton at the time any more than Ratten was before him, but blaming Malthouse for our current plight is missing the point in my opinion.
No coach has succeeded at Carlton for two decades, have they all been duds?
It doesn't defy logic at all. Whatever love McGuire has for Bucks, the Pies know Malthouse better than anyone - the succession plan was several years in the making. There was plenty of time for everyone to know exactly what was going on, and to have plenty of time to prepare themselves. Is it better to go out on a high, or is it better for a team to crash and burn before someone realizes a change needs to occur ?
Where exactly have I blamed any one individual over our current malaise ?
Pagan, MM and Ratts are not dud coaches. Our problems run a lot deeper than just one person - that doesn't mean that coaches should be treated equally, and it doesn't mean coaches should be let off the hook, simply because an AFL club is a complex organization, with plenty of other blame candidates. Surely by now we have enough mechanisms, processes etc in place to be able to judge whether a particular individual is doing a good job or not ?
Re: Where do you think Carlton will finish in 2017? - laj - 04-26-2017
(04-26-2017, 12:49 AM)blue4life link Wrote:Malthouse coached Collingwood to a flag and runner up in the two years prior to his sacking, it defies logic to say that his best was behind him 12 months later.
I'm not implying that Malthouse was the right appointment for Carlton at the time any more than Ratten was before him, but blaming Malthouse for our current plight is missing the point in my opinion.
No coach has succeeded at Carlton for two decades, have they all been duds?
Time passes you by pretty quickly in the coaching caper as the game quickly evolves. Both Pagan and Malthouse kept going previous old methods that the opposition quickly worked out. The same plan doesn't work for more than a couple of years. Pagan was still controlling interchanges at the end meaning we were going at 30 a game while the opposition were going at 80-100+. The issue you have with old coaches. Clarko, by contrast. evolved and continued to change his game plan. Ratten did coach to our strengths hence had success, even if that was downhill skiing, which we did need to sort admittedly to take the next step, but hey, we were winning. He never had a super list so he did well to get us to 3 finals series.
Re: Where do you think Carlton will finish in 2017? - LP - 04-26-2017
Nobody knows the mix of responsibility that was in place at Collingwood prior to MMs departure.
What we do know is that MM wanted an autocracy at Carlton, as a club we were stupid we gave it to him! The days when one bloke can call all the shots at AFL level are long gone!
This was Ratten's downfall, and it was MMs downfall.