+- Carlton Supporters Club (http://new.carltonsc.com)
+-- Forum: Social Club (http://new.carltonsc.com/forum-6.html)
+--- Forum: Blah-Blah Bar (http://new.carltonsc.com/forum-23.html)
+--- Thread: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) (/thread-2312.html)
Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
274
275
276
277
278
279
280
281
282
283
284
285
286
287
288
289
290
291
292
293
294
295
296
297
298
299
300
301
302
303
304
305
306
307
308
309
310
311
312
313
314
315
316
317
318
319
320
321
322
323
324
325
326
327
328
329
330
331
332
333
334
335
336
337
338
339
340
341
342
343
344
345
346
347
348
349
350
351
352
353
354
355
356
357
358
359
360
361
362
363
364
365
366
367
368
369
370
371
372
373
374
375
376
377
378
379
380
381
382
383
384
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - DJC - 04-08-2017
(04-07-2017, 11:58 PM)Thryleon link Wrote:Agreed.
Ask yourself this question. Why would Assad choose now to attack his own people like this when he's been regaining control. What's the strategic advantage of doing so?
The answer is none. This episode reeks of false flag to me.
I hate the term, but it's ethnic cleansing.
Bashar al-Assad remains in power through the support of his Alawite minority. Anyone else is fair game.
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - madbluboy - 04-08-2017
(04-07-2017, 10:12 PM)Thryleon link Wrote:The only thing I find interesting is that everyone is happy to enforce their ideas of democracy on other nations and then state that our brand of war pain and suffering is better than the home grown version.
Meanwhile the occupation of northern Cyprus by Turkish insurgents continues from 1974 to today.
No one seems to worry overly about that one though.
We're the good guys though.
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading - Mav - 04-08-2017
(04-07-2017, 11:58 PM)Thryleon link Wrote:Agreed.Why wouldn't he? He did it in 2013, didn't he? And he's a brutal dictator. Have a look at the fable concerning the scorpion and the frog. It's his nature.
Ask yourself this question. Why would Assad choose now to attack his own people like this when he's been regaining control. What's the strategic advantage of doing so?
The answer is none. This episode reeks of false flag to me.
The problem is that Trump has never accepted that his words matter. He feels he's free to say one thing one day and then another the next. He sees this uncertainty as a positive in international relations, the "hothead" principle applied to global politics.
In this case, might Assad have believed that Trump's recent and not so recent comments meant he had room to move? Trump went ballistic on Twitter in 2013 warning Obama that reacting militarily to a bigger chemical weapons attack would be a horrible mistake. He declared that it would have no benefit for the US. All through the election campaign, he ran on an America First policy, saying the US shouldn't be involved unless its own interests are affected. He said that he would go after ISIS as his priority and he was open to joining with Russia and Assad in Syria to defeat ISIS. Only last week, Secretary of State Tillerson declared that Trump has reversed Obama's demand that there should be regime change and that he believed that the long-term status of Assad would be determined by the Syrian people.
Assad has been using chemical weapons regularly as a tactical military weapon and a weapon of terror. Why would he have discontinued their use when the wind from the US seemed to be blowing favourably?
He has been concentrating on suppressing opposition forces rather than ISIS. Have a look at this article from the NY Times countering the argument that Assad wouldn't be this crazy: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/06/world/middleeast/syria-bashar-al-assad-russia-sarin-attack.html?_r=0.
Fair enough, query the evidence. But don't expect us to accept that there is no such thing as evidence anymore - that as long as you can think up a conspiracy theory, then that theory can be used as contrary evidence that either ensures a nil-all draw or as proof in and of itself.
Ask yourself this - if Assad's forces really were going to go after a chemical weapons depot, wouldn't he want to ensure that the international community saw that the opposition was as evil as he is? If bombing such a storage facility would likely lead to the escape of chemicals that would kill civilians, don't you think that Assad would want to forewarn the international community of this possibility to ensure that his regime wasn't unfairly blamed for any deaths? Instead, the first anyone heard of this possibility was when Assad raised it after the event in his defence.
Then we have an intriguing allegation from the Americans. After the chemical weapons event, a Russian drone overflew the site of the bombing and later a single bomber overflew the area and dropped conventional bombs. Why would this occur? The US military believes it was a cover-up. As the hospital at which victims were to be treated or autopsied was bombed in this secondary attack, one possibility is that this was an attempt to destroy evidence of the use of chemical weapons. Autopsies have subsequently confirmed they killed civilians.
And remember that the Russians are on Assad's side. They provide support for Assad's Air Force. That means that they no doubt performed pre-bombing aerial reconnaissance by satellite, drones, or their own aircraft. Remember, this was a very sensitive operation - bombing an alleged chemical weapons storage facility in a residential area. To do it right, close surveillance had to precede the raid to ensure that weapons were not moved out of the storage facility. Any that were would need to be tracked and targeted separately. The Syrians would of course lean on the Russians who were on the airbase. You'd think the Russians would have been ecstatic to show the world the reconnaissance material that proved the Americans made an unprovoked attack on a sovereign country. But no! Just bald assertions. They never bothered to present such evidence before the UN and haven't published any since. Why are they so shy? I'm sure there's a conspiracy theory to explain this ...
Experts also think that chemical weapons would be destroyed by conventional bombs that were supposed to annihilate a storage facility/factory. In addition, they doubt that sarin gas would be stored in its active form and it would need to be mixed before use, something that wouldn't happen randomly during an explosion.
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - mateinone - 04-08-2017
(04-07-2017, 11:58 PM)Thryleon link Wrote:Agreed.
Ask yourself this question. Why would Assad choose now to attack his own people like this when he's been regaining control. What's the strategic advantage of doing so?
The answer is none. This episode reeks of false flag to me.
I was going to respond to this, but it has already been covered extremely well and there isn't a lot to add.
Needless to say though, he hasn't chosen 'now' to attack his own people, he has been doing it for years, with Sarin, with Chlorine...
The guy is a monster who truly believes killing innocents in the pursuit of enemies is a valid way to keep control.
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - madbluboy - 04-08-2017
(04-08-2017, 05:30 AM)mateinone link Wrote:The guy is a monster who truly believes killing innocents in the pursuit of enemies is a valid way to keep control.
How many innocents have "we" killed trying to get the baddies in the middle east?
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - mateinone - 04-08-2017
(04-08-2017, 05:46 AM)madbluboy link Wrote:How many innocents have "we" killed trying to get the baddies in the middle east?
A lot and it isn't great, I don't think anyone thinks it is. But it is undeniable that the West make more effort to direct their strikes in a way to try and minimize the impact on civilians, but it doesn't always work and sometimes there have been terrible consequences. Nobody is saying that the west is without fault, but it can't be denied by anyone that there has been an attempt by the world to define acceptable use of force, as opposed to War Crimes.
Assad makes no distinction at all. I find it hard to believe that anyone would believe for a moment that if all evidence was on the table and he was before the International Courts in the Hague that he would be found guilty of War Crimes.
I don't see though why the discussion is "We do bad shit too"...
Shouldn't the discussion be
Who was responsible for the chemical attack in Syria?
What actions are to be taken against those responsible?
If the answer to A is Syria (or it's allies), then it is hard to argue against the US response isn't it?
It is a terrible world where armed conflict is the answer to any situation, but I think it would be niave of anyone to think that it is never required.
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - PaulP - 04-08-2017
MIO, what you say goes completely against the writings and speeches etc. of people like Chomsky.
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - LP - 04-08-2017
(04-08-2017, 05:46 AM)madbluboy link Wrote:How many innocents have "we" killed trying to get the baddies in the middle east?Who really kills children who are on the military base, the people dropping the bombs or the people who moved them in to live there?
Do you think it's an accident they are there?
You want to watch the movie "Eye in the Sky" for quite a reasonable perspective of how this sort of conflict works.
The choice is really some casualties there, of a Shopping Mall full of innocent people anywhere else! That is the reality of the situation, something we should all think about next time we wander down the shops with our kids or grand kids for an ice-cream or a coffee!
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - mateinone - 04-08-2017
(04-08-2017, 06:24 AM)PaulP link Wrote:MIO, what you say goes completely against the writings and speeches etc. of people like Chomsky.
I am okay with that
Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) - madbluboy - 04-08-2017
(04-08-2017, 06:39 AM)LP link Wrote:Who really kills children who are on the military base, the people dropping the bombs or the people who moved them in to live there?
The one who pulls the trigger.