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+--- Thread: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda (/thread-5345.html)
Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda - LP - 08-01-2021
(08-01-2021, 02:45 AM)kruddler date Wrote:....and if thats the case....its the same rules for everyone....and Jones still does better than anyone. So why the argument?See the last bit I was still editing when you replied.
Also it's basically a team tactic, it's not a direct assessment or judgement of individual player ability.
I'd say Jones gets this job, primarily because he is weaker at the very thing we commonly think is one on one contested marking, and that is wrestling at the fall of the ball.
That is not a commentary from me asserting Jones is either good or bad, it's just the way it is in our team.
As I mentioned last week, fans kybosh Plowman because he always seems to be on the losing end of contests, but that is because he's the one picking up the loose pieces that will allow Jones and Weitering to do what they do when they leave opponents and intercept mark.
Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda - PaulP - 08-01-2021
Jones and Weitering are pretty much the best KPD combo in the AFL. I give them both votes by default in the Jim Park. If Teague survives the review, he will in large part have the two of them to thank. When the chips are down, they have almost single handedly kept us in games IMO.
Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda - kruddler - 08-01-2021
(08-01-2021, 02:49 AM)LP link Wrote:See the last bit I was still editing when you replied.
Also it's basically a team tactic, it's not a direct assessment or judgement of individual player ability.
I'd say Jones gets this job, primarily because he is weaker at the very thing we commonly think is one on one contested marking, and that is wrestling at the fall of the ball.
That is not a commentary from me asserting Jones is either good or bad, it's just the way it is in our team.
As I mentioned last week, fans kybosh Plowman because he always seems to be on the losing end of contests, but that is because he's the one picking up the loose pieces that will allow Jones and Weitering to do what they do when they leave opponents and intercept mark.
You can argue that he is not #1, despite stats saying he is, but you cannot argue that the stats are so far out of whack that he is actually no good in that area.
Fact is, he is very good in this area, quite possibly the best. The point you are attempting to make is hardly worth it in the scheme of things.
FWIW, AFL stats use champion data stats, so its all the same thing and no differences between the 2.
Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda - LP - 08-01-2021
(08-01-2021, 06:21 AM)kruddler date Wrote:You can argue that he is not #1, despite stats saying he is, but you cannot argue that the stats are so far out of whack that he is actually no good in that area.The users of CD are free to apply their own weight to the data.
Fact is, he is very good in this area, quite possibly the best. The point you are attempting to make is hardly worth it in the scheme of things.
FWIW, AFL stats use champion data stats, so its all the same thing and no differences between the 2.
I never claimed Jones was bad or poor at his role, so why mention it? I was questioning the concept that he was the best based on all the various options available and how they are assessed? I was also highlighting the difference between the common fan understanding of a contested mark, and what CD uses.
Secondly, the AFL takes CD data and uses Player Ratings which I believe originally came form Vic Uni, however the the way Player Ratings characterised things like a contest are not necessarily the same as the CD version of a contest. this introduces a distortion, because they are applying an algorithm to similar data not identical data.
I note now, several AFL clubs are unhappy with the way CD does it's analysis and perform their own analysis. btw., You may ask why go to that cost, it turns out that CD is contracted to the AFL, and clubs have to pay for access to that data, so CD is not free if you are an AFL club. So I suppose they argue if they must pay they may as well get what they want.
Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda - kruddler - 08-01-2021
(08-01-2021, 09:43 AM)LP link Wrote:I never claimed Jones was bad or poor at his role, so why mention it?
Because the sole reason this came up is because you had a hissy fit saying he is not the best.
Who cares if he is the best, 2nd best, 3rd best.....he is elite at what he does....which is the point.
You get on your high horse and 'prove a point' that doesn't change the message of the original point.....so why bother?
Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda - LP - 08-01-2021
(08-01-2021, 09:56 AM)kruddler date Wrote:Because the sole reason this came up is because you had a hissy fit saying he is not the best.This below is a hissy fit..................?
(08-01-2021, 12:42 AM)LP date Wrote:I think those statistics need to be qualified because the bulk of his marks come as the 3rd man up ....................Once again you've gone on to argue a non-existent point, there was no hissy fit, there was no claim or argument Jones was no good as you asserted, you made it all up!
Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda - kruddler - 08-01-2021
(08-01-2021, 10:02 AM)LP link Wrote:Once again you've gone on to argue a non-existent point, there was no hissy fit, there was no claim or argument Jones was no good as you asserted, you made it all up!Your whole rhetoric is answering questions that nobody was asking.
Jones = elite at intercept marks. EOS.
No need to spew forth potential inaccuracies over statistics, use your eyes. Data just backs that up.
Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda - LP - 08-01-2021
(08-01-2021, 10:07 AM)kruddler date Wrote:Jones = elite at intercept marks. EOS.The debate wasn't about intercept marking though, the debate was about him labelled as the best One on One defender..
No need to spew forth potential inaccuracies over statistics, use your eyes. Data just backs that up.
So again your debating something nobody else is writing about, you do it all the time and take discussions off track!
Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda - jeza - 08-01-2021
(07-30-2021, 01:31 PM)flyboy77 link Wrote:disagree, we must get him to 300.
And I'm not a fan of Smurf....
I am amazed we have supporters who would even consider this. Finals are right there - we are 1 game out and we're talking about putting the individual ahead of the entire point of the club as a whole?
Make finals. Or play 17 vs. 18 because we want to limp a guy to a meaningless milestone. It's an amazing achievement to play 297 games the same as it is to play 300. Why does anyone care? Murphy himself would be embarrassed for all eternity if his 299th game he cost us finals.
Re: Post Game Passion; AFL Rd 20: Carlton vs St Kilda - Milhanna13 - 08-01-2021
(08-01-2021, 02:43 AM)Shakin77 link Wrote:During the call, I think it was on the radio (listened to the 1st quarter in the car) BT called O'Brien a poor kick and asked Bartel about his development.
Heard that as well. Probably a case of BT mixing up Dow and OBrien. He ain’t that smart (esp when it comes to our players)