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Re: General Discussions - LP - 08-01-2022
(08-01-2022, 12:18 PM)DJC date Wrote:I heard an Aboriginal bloke on the wireless today who gave a very good reason why an Indigenous voice to Parliament would be a good thing.But is that the voice you will hear, or one more radical?
Basically, he said that, as a taxpayer, he was unhappy about the money that is spent on programs for Indigenous folk and doesn’t produce the intended/desired outcomes. He felt that having an Indigenous voice to Parliament would mean that Government funding for Indigenous programs would be better targeted and produce better outcomes. That would be a win-win.
Re: General Discussions - Macca37 - 08-01-2022
In theory the idea of an indigenous voice commenting to the government of the day on proposed legislation affecting indigenous people is excellent. My concern arises from implementing such a voice in a way that truely represents the indigenous communities.
The media tends to falsely project the idea that indigenous communities for the most part agree on any given subject. Given that there are many clans with different languages and customs, including inhabitants of remote communities with little or no knowledge of the English language or of life outside their own community, what would be the means of selecting truely representative indigenous people?
On another loosely related matter that really gets under my skin is the fact that the eloquent, university educated indigenous people who are rightly pushing for the voice, conveniently ignore the elephant in the room, namely, the domestic violence and child sexual abuse which is between two to five times higher, and higher again in remote communities, than in the non indigenous population.
They must be aware of the situation. Back in January 2011 the Australian Institute of Criminology published a paper "Non-disclosure of violence in Australian indigenous communities." The Conclusion stated:
The high levels of violence and abuse seen in some indigenous communities are closely linked to a wide range of other problems such as community disfunction, marginalisation, disempowerment, poverty, alcohol and substance use and other social behaviours.These are major problems with difficult solutions that are well beyond the range of this paper ..........A number of the inquiries and reports cited in this paper show that violence and abuse are so prevalent in some communities that they are seen as inevitable, as something to be tolerated and not disclosed. People in all communities have a fundamental right to live without the expectation that they, or those around them, will be violently victimised. Moving past this to an expectation that victimisation is atypical and intolerable is undeniably necessary.
Surely there are enough problems outlined there, and in many other inquiries and reports, requiring practical solutions that one would expect indigenous supporters of their rights to be clamouring for government funding for further research. But where are they?
As a side note, quite some years ago in my professional occupation I accompanied a federal committee examining the working conditions of indigenous women on cattle stations in Queensland, NT and Western Australia and observed firsthand the poverty and absolute hopelessness of the people. An anthropologist from UNSW who specialised in indigenous customs and practices who accompanied us said the problems are insoluble.
Re: General Discussions - LP - 08-01-2022
(08-01-2022, 11:43 AM)dodge date Wrote:Prof, Lydia is the other side of the fence to Pauline, so represents the other side of Pauline. Or the way she carries on, just herself.What is that saying about extremes, something about if you go far enough either way you meet in the middle!
Some people will see that raised arm as a unifying cry for help, others see it as a salute to anarchy! I can't help but think Thorpe does stuff like that to feather her own nest, spend a lot of time on US forums telling the politically motivated how the indigenous plight here is as bad or worse than the equivalent of what happens in the USA. Leveraging the fact we are half a globe away and nobody will ever be bothered to cross check the facts.
There is just as much money in rebellion as there is in unification, but some see rebellion as a much easier way forward, you can motivate the mob and let them do the work for you!
Do we just turn a blind eye to radicals skimming the cream in the knowledge that some of the support / cash will make it to where we intend, after all this is what it is about for many of the louder voices, a cash settlement?
Re: General Discussions - Thryleon - 08-01-2022
(08-01-2022, 12:18 PM)DJC link Wrote:I heard an Aboriginal bloke on the wireless today who gave a very good reason why an Indigenous voice to Parliament would be a good thing.
Basically, he said that, as a taxpayer, he was unhappy about the money that is spent on programs for Indigenous folk and doesn’t produce the intended/desired outcomes. He felt that having an Indigenous voice to Parliament would mean that Government funding for Indigenous programs would be better targeted and produce better outcomes. That would be a win-win.
The first time I voted in a Commonwealth election, I voted for Neville Bonner who became the first ever Indigenous person in Parliament. However, Senator Bonner and the Indigenous people in the current Parliament are there to represent their electorates, not just Indigenous people (who would make up a small percentage of the voters in most electorates).
I don’t know the mechanics of the Indigenous voice, no-one does at this stage, but I am familiar with The Uluru Statement from the Heart. It’s advocating constitutional change to improve representation of Indigenous Australians to the Commonwealth Government. Victoria already has such an arrangement in place and South Australia is establishing its Indigenous representative body. The sky hasn’t fallen in Victoria and I suspect that it won’t in South Australia … or the Commonwealth.
Thank you. This is the sort of answer I was looking for.
The one thing I want to add, is anyone ever happy with how the government uses money?
If this leads to less wasted money that's a good thing, but my suspicion is that there will be frequent demand for more to be spent on indigenous people (which is generally the status quo at federal level).
I think Macca37 raises an interesting point with respect to how the mechanics of the indigenous voice will work with the different communities, language and effectively nations that exist in Australia. I do know that a government institution in Victoria, hired the wrong person from an indigenous background to serve as indigenous liasion in a health care service, and that person was from Queensland with the result that it did more harm than good for the people in that Victorian community and resulted in them being disengaged.
Re: General Discussions - Lods - 08-01-2022
(08-01-2022, 11:17 PM)Thryleon link Wrote:I think Macca37 raises an interesting point with respect to how the mechanics of the indigenous voice will work with the different communities, language and effectively nations that exist in Australia. I do know that a government institution in Victoria, hired the wrong person from an indigenous background to serve as indigenous liasion in a health care service, and that person was from Queensland with the result that it did more harm than good for the people in that Victorian community and resulted in them being disengaged.
On a previous theme....if you want to see a 'rainbow' have a look at a map of the indigenous groups within Australia.
I remember when I first started teaching I was sitting with a young indigenous lad.
He was from the Northern Territory and somehow or other had found himself caught up in the NSW juvenile Justice system.
We were watching a game of touch football and more than half the boys were indigenous inner city kids.
We talked about home and the the things he liked to do...a lot of hunting and fishing, very little schooling was pretty much the things he enjoyed.
He pointed to the group playing football and said..."See these blokes, they're 'yellowfellas' (I'm not sure why he picked that colour but he did). They don't know any of that stuff."
He saw 'himself' as different.
So finding that united indigenous voice may still be a challenge in this day and age.
Some issues are universal, others are area or people specific.
Re: General Discussions - LP - 08-01-2022
(08-01-2022, 11:17 PM)Thryleon date Wrote:I do know that a government institution in Victoria, hired the wrong person from an indigenous background to serve as indigenous liasion in a health care service, and that person was from Queensland with the result that it did more harm than good for the people in that Victorian community and resulted in them being disengaged.Yes, I've experienced examples of this first-hand in R&D and also heard accounts of similar things happening in Education. There's quite a bit of irony hiding in the detail.
It will be a weakness of the system if it is not designed carefully, because enemies and manipulators will leverage the inherent prejudice that exists.
I can recall similar events early on when NZ went down this path, and despite clear progress the initial result was also that many crooks quickly rose to the top of the pecking order, and for many that meant it wasn't seen as representative.
Re: General Discussions - LP - 08-01-2022
(08-01-2022, 11:50 PM)Lods date Wrote:He saw 'himself' as different.A family member has had a similar experience in Education while being involved in the administration of an indigenous scholarship scheme, the problem is far more complex than the wider public accept.
Racism is a human trait, not the exclusive societal or institutional racism that some like to make out. It is equally represented from all perspectives, and the debate about power and wealth somehow being a demarcation or delineation is mostly a smokescreen used to excuse reciprocal behaviour.
Re: General Discussions - DJC - 08-02-2022
(08-01-2022, 02:52 PM)LP link Wrote:But is that the voice you will hear, or one more radical?
Victoria’s first people’s assembly is far from radical - much to the annoyance of more radical folk.
A representative body would reflect the views of their constituents and would include conservative, progressive and radical voices.
Re: General Discussions - DJC - 08-02-2022
(08-01-2022, 11:50 PM)Lods link Wrote:On a previous theme....if you want to see a 'rainbow' have a look at a map of the indigenous groups within Australia.
I remember when I first started teaching I was sitting with a young indigenous lad.
He was from the Northern Territory and somehow or other had found himself caught up in the NSW juvenile Justice system.
We were watching a game of touch football and more than half the boys were indigenous inner city kids.
We talked about home and the the things he liked to do...a lot of hunting and fishing, very little schooling was pretty much the things he enjoyed.
He pointed to the group playing football and said..."See these blokes, they're 'yellowfellas' (I'm not sure why he picked that colour but he did). They don't know any of that stuff."
He saw 'himself' as different.
So finding that united indigenous voice may still be a challenge in this day and age.
Some issues are universal, others are area or people specific.
Have a listen to the Warumpi Band’s “Black Fella, White Fella” Lods.
The emergence of Indigenous leaders like Pearson, Wyatt, Burney and Dodson has diluted the Yella Fella tag that was once widespread in northern Australia. I suspect that the success of Indigenous footballers of all hues has played a part too. And then there’s the influence of artists like the late, great Archie Roach.
However, it is to be expected that self-interest plays a part in expectations in Indigenous communities as it does in all parts of society.
Programs failing because the wrong person was employed is generally code for the program not being adequately planned. Even in traditional owner and cultural heritage organisations, it’s common for off country people to be employed. Several Victorian peak Indigenous organisations are led by interstate people.
Victoria’s first people’s assembly works well. It was set up after extensive consultation to establish how best to represent Indigenous Victorians. It doesn’t suit everyone, perhaps because it gives a voice to ordinary folk and not just the outspoken. I would imagine that any Indigenous voice to the Commonwealth Parliament would require a similar consultation process.
Re: General Discussions - LP - 08-02-2022
(08-02-2022, 12:33 AM)DJC date Wrote:Victoria’s first people’s assembly is far from radical - much to the annoyance of more radical folk.Yes, it seems so.
A representative body would reflect the views of their constituents and would include conservative, progressive and radical voices.
But on the fringe there are some real whack jobs and they are chipping around the edges!
A great example are flags.
There was outrage that local councils had to pay to fly the Indigenous flag, then the Feds fixed that problem and the Indigenous flag was flying freely at locations all over the state. But wait, there's more! All of a sudden councils had to fly the "Local Tribe's Indigenous Flag" or else it is disrespectful, apparently not everyone thinks the Indigenous flag is their flag, did you even know Local Indigenous Tribes had a flag, and if so when did they come into existence? :o
You guessed it, there is a fee for flying the Local Tribe's Indigenous Flag, who would have thunk it! :
