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+--- Thread: The Great Ruck Debate. (/thread-6556.html)
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - kruddler - 07-09-2024
(07-09-2024, 06:21 AM)ElwoodBlues1 link Wrote:I think a lot of fans viewed GWS at home as a danger game much like the Swans are hard yakka at the SCG and its unlikely we would beat either if both were having reasonable seasons.
GWS match up well and have players who can counter our best so the result was no real surprise and no need to panic and drop half the team.
The ruck debate is an easy one for me...horses for courses, Briggs and Riccardi only required one specialist ruck and some relief workers in McKay and Kennedy. TDK was ok around the ground but Briggs had a day out and that can happen vs any team and I wouldnt be rushing Pittonet back in unless TDK is carrying an injury or too sore to play 100 mins.
Yep.
Personally, i'd give TDK the week off. Just like i would've given Kennedy the week off.
At this time of year, with our injury list as small as it is, THIS is when you rest players and get them right. No point running players into the ground and not giving their body a chance to recover right before you start playing the most important games of the year - finals.
I am especially worried about TDK and keeping him fit because he appears to be a bit of an 'orchid' - needs perfect conditions to thrive.
That is, his athleticism is his strong point. His weakness is his body and consistency. We can't really carry a half-fit TDK in the same way we can carry a half fit Pittonet. Pitto doesn't need to run, jump, dodge. He is a push and shove guy who wants contact and wants to bruise you. If he is hurt, that doesn't really change the way he plays. He is by no means bullet proof and cops his injuries as well. But, if both rucks did an ankle, or copped a whack on the knee....or a corky....who would be more effected by that?
Its not an easy decision, TDKs best is very good. His worst is terrible. Whereabouts on that rollercoaster he is on any given week you can only hope to understand. Pitto probably won't reach the highs of TDK, but he probably won't sink to the lows either. More 'even' performances week to week. More consistent.
Which one you pick may change depending on how risk averse you are.
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - Lods - 07-14-2024
We once again have multiple threads discussing the ruck situation.
Multiple threads discussing the same topic really make it hard to follow who said what and when.
They also stifle discussion regarding other aspects of the game.
I know it frustrates many posters.
By all means copy and paste from other threads to continue the discussion in here.
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - madbluboy - 07-16-2024
Nathan Buckley made some good points this week about the ruck. Showed that the sides that have had the most hit outs have only won 49% of games.
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - kruddler - 07-17-2024
(07-16-2024, 11:30 PM)madbluboy link Wrote:Nathan Buckley made some good points this week about the ruck. Showed that the sides that have had the most hit outs have only won 49% of games.
Was there a hitout to advantage stat?
Been saying it forever, hitouts is 100% useless. Technically, you can win every single hitout and direct every one to the opposition and the hitouts stat will say your ruck had the best game in history.
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - LP - 07-17-2024
Any stat presented in isolation is not worthless but it often has less worth, tackles stats are the prime example.
Tackles can be up because you team is second to the footy, or it can be a deliberate tactic like the Dogs against us last weekend that produces the same number.
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - kruddler - 07-17-2024
(07-17-2024, 12:40 AM)LP link Wrote:Any stat presented in isolation is not worthless but it often has less worth, tackles stats are the prime example.
Tackles can be up because you team is second to the footy, or it can be a deliberate tactic like the Dogs against us last weekend that produces the same number.
Hitout stats are THE prime example.
They do not take into account in any fashion if they help or hurt the team. But they are included in any basic stat sheet and have done so for decades.
Tackle stats do not tell a complete story, but it is still a benefit to your team if you get a tackle (overall).
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - LP - 07-17-2024
(07-17-2024, 12:44 AM)kruddler date Wrote:Hitout stats are THE prime example.Much is the same for HtA, Pitto had almost his best game for the season, almost +50% on his season average.
They do not take into account in any fashion if they help or hurt the team. But they are included in any basic stat sheet and have done so for decades.
Tackle stats do not tell a complete story, but it is still a benefit to your team if you get a tackle (overall).
But HtA doesn't mean much if the Dogs are deliberately surrendering the front position, and most of us have been making that point for a long long time.
Virtually all stats presented in isolation are diminished in value, presenting stats in isolation it's often just cherrypicking facts to suit a debate, in other words a deliberately introduced selection bias in the analysis, or a confirmation bias after the events.
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - PaulP - 07-17-2024
In and of themselves, stats are just collections of data. The meaning and usefulness of stats increases with your knowledge and expertise in the context and subject matter. Anyone can trot out stats. But making sense of them, extracting meaning, correct and useful information from stats is another matter entirely. I'm not specially convinced that looking at W/L of 1 ruck v 2 is revealing anything meaningful, and I doubt very much the club would adopt such a reductionist mindset when looking at our form and performance.
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - Baggers - 07-17-2024
Sure is a fascinating subject, this!
Seems to me that the 'modern era' ruckman, at best, is also a tall midfielder. Grundy and Gawn are good examples. How much better do the Fluffy Ducks look with possibly the recruit of the year, Grundy? It's almost as if hit outs and hit outs to advantage are no longer the primary function, the first being contest. Then getting in and amongst the mids to provide another option is the next important facet to their game.
Grundy and Gawn both are active around the ground, in the air and on the grass. I see TDK being more like those two than Pitto. One of the first questions I ask myself when Pitto takes the number one mantle, is who misses out and what happens to TDK? A difficult predicament.
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - LP - 07-17-2024
(07-17-2024, 01:43 AM)Baggers date Wrote:One of the first questions I ask myself when Pitto takes the number one mantle, is who misses out and what happens to TDK? A difficult predicament.Before you can ask who and what, you have to accept it's going to happen at some stage, and that seems to be where the fan debate breaks down, fans speak in absolutes like never or always. I doubt the MC, coaches or players do the same.
Some will assert it's only a need like an injury replacement that will trigger it, but I would assert good player management and strategy will require it to happen proactively and preventatively.
If you are predictable, to be successful you have to be the very best of all like Judd, not just the best at your own club. But even the very best can't sustain 100% performance all season long, it's impossible. All players are human, health, fitness, focus and form all wax and wane through a season.