+- Carlton Supporters Club (http://new.carltonsc.com)
+-- Forum: Social Club (http://new.carltonsc.com/forum-6.html)
+--- Forum: Blah-Blah Bar (http://new.carltonsc.com/forum-23.html)
+--- Thread: General Discussions (/thread-4803.html)
Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
Re: General Discussions - Thryleon - 07-28-2022
(07-28-2022, 09:37 PM)PaulP link Wrote:The angry mob reaction is highlighted for comedic purposes, but over here in the real world, the messaging is pretty clear. If you refuse to wear the indigenous jumper, it means at some level you have an issue with Indigenous rights. If you refuse to wear the Carlton Respects jumper, it means at some level you have an issue with gender equality. If you refuse to wear the pride jumper, it means at some level you have an issue with gay rights. These aren't fashion choices.
Objectors should take ownership of their biases, grow a pair and stop trying to get themselves off the hook, by demanding their right to an an opinion without consequence, or by hiding behind religious or cultural beliefs.
This is art immitating life.
The ribbon in this case was a cause that everyone can get behind right?
But, the point is, that this could be anything including causes that not everyone can or wants to get behind. Why is personal. The whole point is that you dont have to be in complete 100% solidarity with any cause, you just shouldnt be in opposition to it, and that should be enough.
Re: General Discussions - PaulP - 07-28-2022
(07-28-2022, 11:04 PM)Thryleon link Wrote:This is art immitating life.
The ribbon in this case was a cause that everyone can get behind right?
But, the point is, that this could be anything including causes that not everyone can or wants to get behind. Why is personal. The whole point is that you dont have to be in complete 100% solidarity with any cause, you just shouldnt be in opposition to it, and that should be enough.
It's called casual or nuanced bigotry. It operates at levels that some outside the affected groups will never notice. You can read anything Chad Wingard has written recently about his experiences with subtle racism. He's not gay, but the principle is exactly the same.
Sitting on the fence and absolving yourself from taking a position, or taking a weak, tokenistic position, is not good enough IMO.
The biggest problem with white male privilege is not cold hardheartedness, it's not lack of intelligence, it's blindness.
Re: General Discussions - Thryleon - 07-28-2022
(07-28-2022, 11:12 PM)PaulP link Wrote:It's called casual or nuanced bigotry. It operates at levels that some outside the affected groups will never notice. You can read anything Chad Wingard has written recently about his experiences with subtle racism. He's not gay, but the principle is exactly the same.
Sitting on the fence and absolving yourself from taking a position, or taking a weak, tokenistic position, is not good enough IMO.
The biggest problem with white male privilege is not cold hardheartedness, it's not lack of intelligence, it's blindness.
NO the biggest problem is insisting that everyone who isnt like minded has a problem because thats your world view and everyone should see the world as you do.
ERGO, that makes you just as bad as the people you criticise.
Re: General Discussions - Thryleon - 07-28-2022
Oh and for the discussion on slavery:
https://restavekfreedom.org/2018/09/11/the-history-of-slavery/#:~:text=Slavery%20Throughout%20the%20Ancient%20World&text=Sumer%20or%20Sumeria%20is%20still,Qin%20Dynasty%20in%20221%20BC.
Slavery's origins predate a lot of the religious argument that has been bandied about on here too.
Re: General Discussions - PaulP - 07-28-2022
(07-28-2022, 11:22 PM)Thryleon link Wrote:NO the biggest problem is insisting that everyone who isnt like minded has a problem because thats your world view and everyone should see the world as you do.
ERGO, that makes you just as bad as the people you criticise.
No, the biggest problem is putting your ego above all else. It has nothing to do with people sharing or not sharing my world view. It has to do with tiny gestures to show support for groups that are still experiencing victimization and discrimination.
Demanding your right to hold an opinion without consequence or responsibility is just ego tripping. Every time you say no to showing some sign of support for groups that need it, it makes their fight for justice and equality just that little bit harder. Slave owners in the antebellum south also thought they were nice guys.
Like I said, blindness.
Re: General Discussions - Lods - 07-29-2022
I don't know Paul.
I think it's a case of black and white vs a hundred shades of grey.
I like to think I'm fairly sympathetic to groups who are disadvantaged or prejudiced against through historical traditions.
Do I get excited about indigenous rounds or pride rounds....not really.
I'm just interested in the football.
But discuss with me the need for groups to be accepted and respected and you'll have me a hundred percent on board.
But to tell another person the level of support 'they' should give to similar causes, and how they should think is above my pay grade.
In the 'real' world that you talk about, shaming and denigrating the opinions and beliefs of others is the most counterproductive way of changing hearts and minds.
The response you get is not to change those opinions...you harden them and drive them underground.
Folks dont engage, they disengage.
Re: General Discussions - LP - 07-29-2022
(07-28-2022, 10:57 PM)Lods date Wrote:Where did you hear they dropped their opposition?Yes, it's reported today as a depleted Manly side lost to the Roosters.
I understand they stayed home.
Re: General Discussions - Mav - 07-29-2022
And yet the Manly players who boycotted the game last night have apparently agreed they’ll wear the jumper next season. Maybe the backlash produced engagement? Remember that this is team sport. The players play for a club and both the club and the NRL have the right to obtain sponsorships and promote the game to as large an audience as they want. An individual player can’t object to wearing a guernsey with Points Bet on it on moral or religious grounds and they presumably can’t refuse to wear the one Manly played in last night. I’m assuming the NRL made sure players’ contracts made this clear after the Izzy Folau saga but Manly chose to placate the 7 players rather than sack them as they form such a large part of the team. If Manly wants to signal acceptance to gays, players will just have to comfort themselves with their 700,000 pieces of silver for selling out Christ.
Re: General Discussions - LP - 07-29-2022
(07-28-2022, 11:22 PM)Thryleon date Wrote:ERGO, that makes you just as bad as the people you criticise.Yes, to me looking at this externally and dispassionately it is for all the world like the old two wrongs at play.
There are a whole host of extreme behaviours on both side of many debates that cannot be justified, I've never understood the concept of bad or good versions of same wrong, often dressed up as virtue signalling.
From my perspective there is very little about this debate that is subtle or nuanced, it's more bludgeoning by the various mobs, ironically mobs that continually claim minority status and persecution!
Re: General Discussions - PaulP - 07-29-2022
(07-29-2022, 12:13 AM)Lods link Wrote:I don't know Paul.
I think it's a case of black and white vs a hundred shades of grey.
I like to think I'm fairly sympathetic to groups who are disadvantaged or prejudiced against through historical traditions.
Do I get excited about indigenous rounds or pride rounds....not really.
I'm just interested in the football.
But discuss with me the need for groups to be accepted and respected and you'll have me a hundred percent on board.
But to tell another person the level of support 'they' should give to similar causes, and how they should think is above my pay grade.
In the 'real' world that you talk about, shaming and denigrating the opinions and beliefs of others is the most counterproductive way of changing hearts and minds.
The response you get is not to change those opinions...you harden them and drive them underground.
Folks dont engage, they disengage.
I agree that some folks who place their ego above all else react badly to being told their opinions directly or indirectly hurt others. I don't know if softly softly is better than direct statements. To be honest, I'm not fussed. They are welcome to think my opinions are black and white, or that they suck etc.
How do you think we got to the point of having Indigenous round ? Do you think us white guys woke up one morning, realized off our own bat that the blackfellas have faced significant and systemic hurdles for 200 years, and we should work to change it ? Or do you think it was a bottom up, long concerted effort by First Nations people mainly, putting in long hours over decades, raising money, raising awareness, raising profile etc. I'd say the latter.
How do you think we got to the point of having Carlton Respects ? Do you think us white guys woke up one morning, realized off our own bat that ladies have been and continue to be badly treated by men, and we should work to change it ? Or do you think it was a bottom up, long concerted effort by women mainly, putting in long hours over decades, raising money, raising awareness, raising profile etc. I'd say the latter.
Like I said, not evil (at least not all time), not lack of intelligence, just blindness.
You don't need to be passionate about the pride jumper - you just need to understand why it exists, and embrace the values it is trying to advocate.